Quantum Leap: The "Genuine" Eventer

While he may give off jock vibes galloping around the cross-country course, Quantum is really just a big softy to those who know him personally. For people who really get to know him, he'll do anything, and it's these relationships that really give him the confidence he needs to be a top 5* event horse. Sam Cuomo, Doug Payne's head groom, talks with me about how she makes sure she's meeting Quantum's needs when at home and on the road.

Transcript

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(Kaitlin) Welcome to Inside Equine Minds, a podcast where I, Kaitlin Hendry, meet with trainers, riders and grooms to dive deep inside the minds of the most successful horses in various disciplines. We'll take you behind the scenes from the horse's perspective to learn about how these horses are trained and managed in a way that strengthens their mental game and fuels their success. This podcast is brought to you by EqPI, or Equine Performance Identities, which is a personality profiling tool to help you understand your horse at an individual level. An EqPI profile provides information about your horse's individual needs and motivations so you can manage and work with them in a way that brings out their best. An EqPI profile can also inform breeding and sales by providing information about temperament to ensure the best match possible between either horse and rider, or stallion and mare. 

Joining me today is Sam Cuomo who is the head groom and manager for Doug Payne who is known best as a five-star Eventer, five-star Show Jumper, and Olympian. Sam and I will be talking about the lovely personality of Quantum Leap who has been with Doug for over a decade. Quantum, as he's known by in his inner circle, has had multiple top 10 finishes at five-star tracks such as the Kentucky 3-day and the Maryland 5 star. Before we connect to Sam, let's do an overview of Quantum’s EqPI profile. As a reminder in order to get the EqPI profile of all of the featured horses on this podcast, I have someone who knows the horse really well, in this case Sam, take the 10-minute EqPI assessment online, which can be found on the EqPI website www.equineperformanceidentities.com. Using Sam's inputs, I'm able to determine where Quantum falls on the four spectrums of behavior that EqPI measures, which are Independence, the horse's preference to control or comply, Extraversion, the horse's preference to interact or isolate, the Stability spectrum, which is the horse's preference for predictability or variety, and lastly, the Structure spectrum, the horse's preference for clarity or flexibility. Starting with the Independence spectrum, Quantum is slightly Low on the spectrum. Horses who are Low Independence sometimes don't have as much self-confidence, and so they really rely on others for guidance. Because of that, though, they tend to be very willing. They really want to please, and they're really good team players. For the Extraversion spectrum, Quantum is Situational for this, and so in order to really understand how Situational spectrums show up, you have to look at how it compares to the other spectrums and the relationships between that spectrum and the other spectrums in that horse's profile. For example, even though he is Low Independence and is more of a team player, Quantum's Stability spectrum is Higher than his Extraversion spectrum, and so he is going to take a little bit more time to warm up to new people and horses, and if he has the choice, he would prefer to stick with who he knows. The Stability spectrum for Quantum is on the high side. High Stability horses tend to be more methodical, more rhythmic. They don't build up energy as much. They tend to be more calm, more chill horses overall. However, Quantum is also High Structure, and so he is really going to want a lot of clarity, really want to know what's expected of him. He's going to want to know the right answer. And so these two spectrums, the Stability spectrum and the Structure spectrum, are really going to play off each other here, because in situations where Quantum is very familiar and his High Structure needs are being met, you'll see a lot more of that High Stability and even maybe a little bit more laziness. But in new scenarios where his High Structure is not being met, then we'll see more of the High Structure behaviors of maybe some tension. Thankfully, because he's also High Stability, he settles in or will likely settle in very quickly, but it's an interesting play when a horse has both High Stability and High Structure. In order to get the full picture of a horse's personality, in addition to looking at the individual spectrums, we have to look at the relationships between the spectrums, and I've already mentioned a lot of the significant or interesting relationships in Quantum's profile, but the one that I haven't mentioned yet is that his Structure spectrum is “higher” than his Independence spectrum, and when we see this relationship, these are much more risk averse horses. Very careful, they don't like change or the unknown very much, although because he has High Stability, he'll settle pretty quickly since that's his strongest spectrum, but I think that we'll notice that he just doesn't like ambiguity or like things to be unknown. If you want to see Quantum's profile in more detail, it's available on the Inside Equine Minds Patreon account. Members have access to all of the guest horse profiles for free or if you're not quite ready to be a member yet, you can purchase individual profiles on Patreon, as well. However, Patreon members also get discount codes for EqPI services and early access to the podcast content. Now that we all have a general understanding of Quantum's profile, let's talk to Sam!

Hey Sam! Welcome! Thanks for joining me. I'm excited to talk with you, because you're my first groom that I've had on the podcast, and so I just am really, really interested to see how this all lands with you from a groom perspective. I usually start by asking my guest what their favorite thing is so what is your favorite thing about Quantum's personality? (Sam) I feel like that's a hard question, because I adore him. I think I could talk about him all day long, but I think what I find really special about him is that, to the public, he is an amazing jumper. He's an athlete. He is focused and quick on the cross country, and he's just incredible like that, in terms of his athleticism and his focus and his drive. But in the barn and working with his people, he is so gentle and calm and so genuine that he makes everything super easy. I think people may have the persona that these upper-level five-star horses are high strung or difficult to handle or whatever it may be, but that is so not the case with him. He is, like I said, he's so gentle and calm, and he's just so lovely to work with, and he's just a sweetheart. (Kaitlin) I'm hearing lots of the Low Independence there, like the very sweet… Low Independence horses are also very low conflict, so they want to… that's where the ‘wanting to please’ comes in, and I love that you're like, “Yeah, he just makes it easy! It's just such a pleasure to work with him!” (Sam) Yeah, he really is. He's so sweet. My favorite thing that he does is you'll go into his stall and he'll just drop his head, and he wants you to itch his ears and kind of just rub all on him. Like he is so… he's just so sweet, and he does make it very enjoyable. (Kaitlin) Does he do that for new people, as well? Or is it just kind of people within his circle. (Sam) I would say mainly people in his circle, but I think that he also… he does want to please I think everyone in a way, and he wants to try and connect with everyone to some degree, that even with new people, he will drop the head and look for scratches and kind of… I think that's his way of being like, “Are we pals? Can we be friends here?” But yeah, he's pretty open to most people, but he definitely knows who his people are. It's pretty cute. I would say his number one person is Doug and Jess's four-year-old daughter. He's so kind to her, and he is just like… when he sees her, the two of them, they light up,. and they're just… they have this connection that is unmatched. It's very, very sweet to see. (Kaitlin) That is adorable! (Sam) I also think that his relationships really matter. Like, he and Doug have such a solid connection that I think he really thrives with like one, that one person that's his guy. Not that he's not good for other people that ride him. I just think that for his personal success, having that relationship is important for him. (Kaitlin) Yeah I could see that with that High Structure, as well, because I mean, obviously even if you're all trained by the same person, you're all going to ride a little bit differently… (Sam) Yeah. (Kaitlin) …so I wonder if that's kind of tying in there where he'd rather just kind of have his own person, even though he does have a fairly, like, “compliant” profile… His Low Independence… like Low Independence horses and people are usually very willing, and they want to please, and they want to be part of the team. And then with High Structure, they want to be accurate and want to be right, so they usually want to follow the rules, and yeah, I'm curious if that's what you experience, as well. (Sam) Yeah, yeah, I think so, because like, he is such a good boy, and he always wants to answer the question correctly and do the right thing, and I think that if there is any anxiety or tension that builds up within him, it's because he feels like he's not answering those questions… (Kaitlin) Or he doesn’t know what… (Sam) Yeah, exactly, like he doesn't know or he's just not feeling super confident, but I think he gets a lot of his confidence from his relationship with Doug in particular. But um, I mean, for me being the one that handles him every single day, and we do a lot together, I think that being a person that he can also rely on to help him with his daily routine is really important for him, too. Yeah, it's interesting. I think that his… I don't know… He is… he's really reliant on that relationship, and he wants to do the right thing, and I think you would almost feel like, “Oh, this is a horse that anyone could just do anything with.” But I think that he also relies on like, the accuracy of helping him understand what's going on and what's expected of him. (Kaitlin) Yeah, accuracy is definitely really important for High Structure and also his Stability spectrum is “higher” than his Extraversion spectrum, so I would venture to say that it takes him a little bit more time to open up to new people and potentially new horses, as well, and so he probably would prefer to… yeah, stick with who he knows. Like, he knows what to expect from them. He's worked with them for a while now. Like, he just wants that consistency. (Sam) I think you're spot on, yeah. (Kaitlin) We've talked about what you love about Quantum, which is very clearly a lot! Of course then, I have to ask though, on the flip side of that, what do you find the most challenging about Quantum's personality? (Sam) I think the most challenging thing is that, because he is pretty structured, and he likes his routine, and he feels comfortable in that, when you take him out of that, he is sensitive. He's sensitive to a change in environment. He can be sensitive to a shift in what friends are around him, and then being able to reestablish that routine, either in a new place or with a new buddy of his or whatever the situation may be, just being able to be like, “Hey! Hey guy, you're okay.” And just kind of calm him down in that sense, because I do think he's kind of an internalizer. He wants to stay stoic and kind of act like things are okay, and he's not kind of tweaking out because his routine was messed up, or it's different I should say, but yeah, being able to take that and kind of take that anxiety that bubbles up and presents itself kind of as tension, I would say. And get him kind of back into that calm demeanor that he has when he's at home in his environment that he's comfortable in. (Kaitlin) Right, so what do you do? You know, obviously he travels a lot, and he has to go to the events and compete, so is there anything that you do to prepare him for that? (Sam) I think that we, as a group, have worked hard to figure out what is going to make him the most comfortable, and I feel like we do a good job for the most part. I think just, by nature, he is going to have the initial reservations when going to a new place or when doing something new. For example, when we travel, I always make sure to take him out of his stall that first day, try and let him graze, let him walk around, let him see everything, and just let him be a horse in that environment. So that he knows, “I'm not coming to a new place, and I'm being put to work, and it's just going to be stressful, and I'm not going to have fun.” Like, I try to avoid that with him so we go out. We go for a walk, I let him graze, just let him kind of soak in his environment. I always feel like that helps a lot, and then just with his routine, in terms of riding, I make sure not to tack him up too early so that he's not sitting in his stall with his tack on, or to kind of keep the same feed schedule. Just the things that we do at home, try and keep them as regular as possible, as you can in a show environment. (Kaitlin) Is there anything that you know of that Doug does from a riding standpoint to help him through that? (Sam) Yeah, yeah one thing that we actually… I guess at the end of last season we discovered that it really helped, was Doug taking him on a hack. Like, a pretty long hack before he starts his warm-up for the dressage phase, so just he gets on. He's all ready to go, but rather than going right to the warm-up, he'll take him on a nice big loop, just stretching, walking, kind of taking it all in, but not being asked anything of him other than just to walk and stretch out and enjoy the moment. And then, from there, go into warm up. That seems to sort of help settle him in a bit more. (Kaitlin) Yeah, I’ve found as well, though, or a theme that I keep hearing with these High Structure horses, is they get their confidence from knowing the right answer, right? And from being an expert in something, like depth of expertise. And so I have heard through my conversations that with these High Structure horses, if you ask them something that they know very well, it's sort of like a boost. They're like, “Oh! I know that!” That's something to latch on to. (Sam) Yeah, I think that is super spot on. With Quantum, I mean I I can't fully speak for Doug and what he does in particular, but like, he usually will warm him up I would say pretty much the same every single time, in terms of doing the stuff that he feels confident doing first, and then maybe going into some of the things that are a little bit more challenging just to kind of kick it off with some confidence boosting stuff. So that we're not starting off with the tension, just kind of kick the tension out the door, first. Let him feel confident, and then go from there. (Kaitlin) Yeah, 100%. Yeah, and that's exactly right. It's like a confidence boost. It's like, “Remember, you know what you're doing! You're okay!” For eventing, like you said earlier, when people think of an eventer, they think probably of this really bold, brave, forward, you know, outgoing potentially, horse. I'm curious how you feel like Quantum either does or does not fit into that mold, and how does that impact his success as a five-star eventer? (Sam) Yeah, I think he fits that mold when he's doing his job. I think he feels, I mean I can't talk to him of course, but my understanding is that when he's doing the things that he loves, like out there running, jumping, just going cross country jumping, show jumping… doing those things, he feels confident, and you can tell he feels confident just by the expression on his face, his willingness to listen to Doug, you can even see it when they're galloping cross country. Like, Doug is able to just kind of be there, be a hand for him to hold in a sense, but Quantum feels confident to be like, “I got this. Take a backseat buddy. I got it.” You can totally see that that's where he feels confident. And he is brave. He will make those moves to kind of get it done, and I think a lot of that has to do with… We had talked about how he falls kind of on the little bit Lower Independence and how he wants to kind of do the right thing and answer the question and relies on the relationship… and having been in a relationship now with Doug for… since he was a yearling so he's 13 now… for 12 years, they have built such a strong relationship that they are able to kind of go out there and be bold and be brave and get it done together. And I think Quantum really relies on that relationship… (Kaitlin) Yeah, that trust. (Sam) …yeah, that they have together. (Kaitlin) Yeah, so managing him around the barn… You mentioned that he likes his schedule, you try to feed at the same time… what other things do you do to just manage him around the barn or, we talked about shows a bit but you can tie that in here as well again if you'd like, but just to help him just be happy around the barn just being a horse. (Sam) Yeah, I think, like I had mentioned, he's a pretty easy guy especially when he's in his comfort zone of his stall at home, his paddock at home. (Kaitlin) Does he have lazy moments sometimes? (Sam) At home for sure, for sure. I mean he loves just being loved on, hanging out in his stall, he is the quietest thing around. In the cross ties, doesn't move a muscle. Like, I'd say in that sense, he's just very like mellow and calm. (Kaitlin) Yeah, doesn't dance a lot. (Sam) None of that. None of that. (Kaitlin) Does he maintain his energy level even if he's had a few days off? (Sam) Yeah, usually. I mean, a few days, for sure. I think when he takes breaks, coming back into work say… like after a big string of competitions, then he takes a little vacation… coming back into work I think is a different story. (Kaitlin) Yeah, that's probably where the High Structure come in, because he's like, “What do you mean? I thought he was retired!” (Sam) Yes, yeah, so like, after he does a five star or something, he'll take about a month off, and coming back into work is always very exciting for him, so yeah, makes sense. Yeah, if he is High Structure, he's like, “My structure was just being on vacation.” (Kaitlin) Right. Yeah. “What the heck?” (Sam) But like, keeping him happy, I think just… he usually gets ridden fairly early in the morning. He's usually one of the first on the list. He likes that so we try and keep it that way. He’s done early, he can relax throughout the day, he gets turned out at night… He really appreciates being one of the first to get turned out and then vice versa in the morning, being one of the first to get turned in. And I think that those are just things that we know amongst us in the barn, so we try and keep that for his routine. He's never the type to get “upset” if you stray from that, but he is one that like… he knows when it's feeding time. He'll kind of look over his stall door and be like, “Um, it's my turn!” Um, so just keeping it as regular as possible for him I think keeps him happy. And I mean he's… he’s easy! I think that's probably a really lame answer maybe, but I think managing him off property is more difficult… or I guess difficult is not the correct word, but more involved, in just following a routine, because it's harder to set a routine just when times are different or other horses are going, and he might not be able to stick to exactly what he's used to. Some things that we do to keep him happy and you know, in that zen mode when we are on the road is like, if one of his buddies is leaving, we'll make sure that he still has a buddy next to him. Like, we never want to leave him alone, because that's something that is kind of triggering for him, because he doesn't feel quite secure when he's left alone in stabling, and he's curious as to when his friends are coming back. Or we will do his Bemer blanket right before he gets tacked up and he… I think he's quite smart to know that, “Okay, I'm getting my Bemer done. I'm going to get tacked up and then I'm going to go.” I think that if we try and Bemer him too early and then he has a wait time, that's a little bit anxiety inducing for him, because then he has to wait. But anything that we can do to reduce anticipation for him, I think is really helpful. (Kaitlin) When you guys go to competitions, does Doug ride him on the first day or does he kind of have some time to settle in a bit. (Sam) So typically, our travel day… will be we get there, we settle them in… Usually we don't ride that first travel day. Usually that's the day that they can kind of settle in, get their bearings… Then I'll do my due diligence to make sure that they have everything that they need in terms of their setup, going for a walk, whatever it may be. And then that next day will be when they start getting into their work. (Kaitlin) What is he like with blankets? Because one of the other themes that comes up with these High Structure horses is they are more sensitive and so I'm curious, like… Is he a horse that really likes to be blanketed? Does he get cold easily? Does he rip them off? (Sam) He's very polite with his blankets, I will say. He likes to be blanketed. I do think he runs a bit colder, but yeah, he's polite with his blankets. He's not one that will play with it. He’s pretty good for getting it on. He’ll stand there and just be like, “Yes, my blanket.” Like I think it's… he likes it. I do think he likes to be nice and toasty under there, so yeah. (Kaitlin) How about with flies? (Sam) He does not like flies. He understands that his fly sheet helps with that, so that's just another thing that he will be happily wearing it, and he likes his fly mask. He is definitely one that will keep it on, whereas we have a lot of others that will. When we go and get them, it is off their face. He’s pretty notorious for always having his fly mask on the entire time he's turned out, so yeah. (Kaitlin) Does he get turned out with other horses at all? (Sam) Um, no. He gets turned out by himself, but that's a setup for all of our horses. (Kaitlin) Right, yeah. That's pretty typical for the higher levels. (Sam) Yeah, he gets turned out with the same buddies next to him, and I mean, he's definitely friends with the ones that are directly surrounding him. He kind of… he likes to be by himself, but he likes to have friends right next door that he can kind of chat with over the fence. (Kaitlin) Does he ever take their fly masks off? (Sam) I don't know that he would, but luckily we do have space between the fence lines so we don't even have to experiment with. (Kaitlin) Oh okay, all right. That's good I just feel like geldings always get a bad rap for playing halter tag and like, ripping their blankets off and… (Sam) Oh totally! I don't know that he would. He's very polite, and I would like to think that he would be respectful to his friends fly gear, but I mean, I don't know. (Kaitlin) Yeah, well the politeness… I think that gets tied back to that more conflict aversion of the Low Independence, and then the High Structure, like wanting to follow the rules, can sometimes be interpreted as you know, like “respectful” or polite, because they know where the boundary is, and they're not going to cross the boundary. (Sam) Yeah, yeah, totally. (Kaitlin) I'm curious what your perspective is on nature versus nurture. In your experience with personalities, do you feel like one or the other has more influence on a horse's personality? (Sam) I believe that nature and nurture both play a role. I think that, as horse people, as a groom, as a rider, as a horse owner… any of those things… I think how we nurture our horses, that's what's going to show their natural tendencies. Their natural personality traits are what is going to show. So like, whatever situation we provide for them is what is going to enhance those natural traits. I think that especially as a groom, I feel like being aware that all horses are different and treating them as such and providing them with different opportunities to succeed is really important. I personally feel like, at the barn that I'm at now with the Paynes, our horses are happy. Like we have really happy horses, because we are aware that they're all different, and we treat them as such. We don't treat them as robots or as machines. Like, they are individuals and they need to be treated and handled as individuals. I feel like at upper-level facilities or at facilities that have a high number of horses, it could be fairly easy to fall into just kind of the same routine with every single horse, because that's just what's efficient in the moment. We don't like to do that. Like I said, we acknowledge that they're all different and that they have different needs, so I feel like, in that sense, the nurturing of those different needs really creates happy horses in our barn. (Kaitlin) And that's one of the goals with EqPI, hopefully, is that you can take a little bit of the guesswork out as far as what those individual needs are. Obviously, they still have needs as a horse, like they need a species appropriate diet, and they're herd animals so they need friends, and all that sort of stuff, but then once you've kind of met all those needs as a horse, then you have to consider them as the individual that they are. And hopefully when you're selling a horse or breeding a horse or matching a horse and rider, having an EqPI profile can help… I mean, there's still going to be a little bit of guesswork, right? Like you said, they're not robots. The personality profile is very helpful, but it might not predict how they react in every situation, but hopefully, it will get you a lot closer to understanding them a lot faster. (Sam) Yeah, for sure. I feel like it's really quite a neat thing. I mean, I've always been aware that horses are all different personality wise. That's just… it's fairly obvious when you work with so many of them, but I after taking Quantum's quiz to see his profile, it was quite eye opening just to see the traits that I see in him or how I feel like he acts day-to-day and kind of seeing them together in a picture, that kind of creates more understanding, is really helpful! And I think that being able to have that profile for different horses… yeah, like you said, to see how you can help them in terms of whatever schedule they need to be on for the farrier, for traveling, for going to shows… all those things. I think being able to have a better understanding of maybe how they're going to react in that situation… I mean it's not going to be perfect every time, but to have a little bit better understanding, I think that's huge! It's really, it's really interesting. (Kaitlin) And it gives us a common language to talk about personality, because I feel like it's hard to talk about a horse without some element of personality coming into play, and I really hope that one day, EqPI can be the standard, and that way, we're all using the same language, and we're talking about personality and temperament the same way. And if you have two horses that are very similar or maybe a new horse that has the same profile as a horse that you know well, that gives you a huge head start as far as what sort of things might work for working with that horse. (Sam) Yeah, yeah, totally. That would… I mean, it gives you the upper hand really to be able to present them with a situation that's going to help them succeed moving forward in your program or in a sales situation or whatever that may be.

(Kaitlin) If you want to know your horse's profile you can get a profile at the EqPI website which is www.equineperformanceidentities.com. If you like this podcast, we'd really appreciate if you showed us some love by rating, following, and sharing with others. Thanks for listening, and we hope you tune in next time!

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