Babylon: A Ham of a Hunter

Babylon is known as much for his boisterous personality as his talent in the hunter ring. In addition to collecting tricolors in the small junior hunters and performance hunter ring, "Crumbles" can be heard announcing himself in the morning on the way to the warmup ring and can be found pulling the fly masks and blankets off of his neighboring stall buddies. John French joins me to discuss how he's taken steps to ensure that Crumbles stays the happy, mischievous ham that he is while still achieving the massive success that he has experienced.

Transcript

Welcome to Inside Equine Minds, a podcast where I, Kaitlin Hendry, meet with trainers, riders and grooms to dive deep inside the minds of the most successful horses in various disciplines. We'll take you behind the scenes from the horse's perspective to learn about how these horses are trained and managed in a way that strengthens their mental game and fuels their success. This podcast is brought to you by EqPI, or Equine Performance Identities, which is a personality profiling tool to help you understand your horse at an individual level. An EqPI profile provides information about your horse's individual needs and motivations so you can manage and work with them in a way that brings out their best. An EqPI profile can also inform breeding and sales by providing information about temperament to ensure the best match possible between either horse and rider, or stallion and mare. 

In today's episode, I am joined by national show hunter hall of fame rider and trainer and four-time World Champion Hunter Rider John French. John is joining me to talk about Babylon, otherwise known as Crumbles, who is a 2015 Oldenburg gelding. Crumbles has been with John pretty much since he was imported by Kent Farrington from Germany. He is now owned by Marnell Sport Horses and leased to Paige Walkenbach. Since day one, since John started showing him, Crumbles has been winning tricolors everywhere. I mean, WEF, Capital Challenge Horse Show, Devon, etc., just winning all the blues wherever he goes. Most recently, he's been showing in the small junior hunters with Paige, as well as doing performance hunters with John. Before we talk to John about Crumbles, let's do a quick overview of Crumbles’ EqPI profile so we're all on the same page as we talk to John. In order to get Crumbles’ EqPI profile, John's barn manager Kim Davidson went on the EqPI website, www.equineperformanceidentities.com and took the online survey for Crumbles to tell me which behavior she observed and how often. By using her inputs, I'm able to determine where Crumbles falls on the four spectrums of behavior that EqPI measures. These four spectrums are Independence which is the horse's preference to control or comply, Extraversion which is the horse's preference to interact or isolate, the Stability spectrum is the horse's preference for predictability or variety, and then the structure spectrum is that last one, which is the horse's preference for clarity or flexibility. In addition to looking at where Crumbles falls on each of these individual spectrums, I then look at how these spectrums relate to each other, and by looking at these nuances, this is what really gives that big picture profile of Crumbles’ personality. For the Independence spectrum, Crumbles is considered high on that spectrum, so he will like to have more autonomy. He will likely have more self-confidence and really kind of approach things from a “what's in it for me” perspective. However, Crumbles is also very high extraversion. This is his strongest spectrum so it's going to influence his behavior the most, and high Extraversion horses… they're social, they're outgoing, they want to be liked, they like getting attention, and so even though from his high Independence, he's not going to be super motivated by pleasing you, he's going to be motivated by getting attention. For his stability spectrum, he is considered situational, so we have to look at how that spectrum relates to the other spectrums to really understand how it actually shows up for him. For example, his stability spectrum is lower than his extraversion spectrum so he is going to have no hesitation whatsoever in meeting new people or new horses, and this is especially true because he has that confidence from his high Independence. His stability spectrum is also higher than his structure spectrum so he's going to be a little bit more laissez faire with rules, and you might need to touch him up a little bit to keep him sensitive and responsive. The last individual spectrum that we're going to look at is his structure spectrum which he is slightly low on, so he is going to be much more adaptable, much more flexible. He's not going to be as offended if things aren't super black and white or the same every day. In fact, he probably will appreciate if there is variety in his routine, because he does have that High Extraversion which makes him more playful. Because his extraversion is higher than his stability, he is probably going to get bored a little bit faster, and with that high Independence, they like to be mentally challenged, and so he is not a horse that is going to want to be doing the same thing day in and day out. We've talked about a number of the relationships between the spectrums already, but there's two that I don't think I've mentioned, yet, that I want to call out. The first one is the relationship between his high Independence and his low structure. When we see this relationship, they're much more risk-tolerant horses. They're comfortable with ambiguity. They don't need a ton of clarity, because they have that adaptability from the low structure and the confidence from the high Independence. The other relationship I want to mention is between his high Independence and his high Extraversion. Even though they are both on the high side, his extraversion is almost double his independence, and so when at the extraversion is higher than the independence spectrum, we get a very other-oriented relationship. Now, it's a little nuanced because the independence is also on the high side, but he is going to really care about relationships, but he'll be kind of more of an in-your-face social horse because of that high independence, and he's just going to want to be a total ham basically. He's going to be a horse with a lot of, you know, “personality.” If you want to see Crumbles’ profile in more detail it is available as always on the Inside Equine Minds Patreon account. Patreon members have access to all of the guest horse profiles for free, or if you're not quite ready to be a member, you can purchase individual profiles on Patreon, as well. Patreon members also, though, get discount codes for EqPI services and early access to the podcast content. Now that we all have the same basic understanding of Crumbles’ personality profile, let's hear what John has to say.

Hi John! Thanks for joining me. Thanks for taking time out of your insanely busy schedule. Welcome to my podcast! I love to start by asking my guests about their favorite thing. I mean, Crumbles has been with you for a long time at this point. What is the thing that you enjoy the most about him? (John) Crumbles’ personality, I mean, I would have to say the thing I like the most is that he is such a happy horse, and he enjoys life. He's eager to please, and he's just happy all the time, has a great expression. He never sort of pins his ears or gets cranky. He's just one of those horses that loves life, loves adventure, loves doing different things. (Kaitlin) And that makes sense because of his high Extraversion. They tend to be more expressive horses, so I love that you mentioned that he's just very expressive, and because his Extraversion is “higher” than his independence spectrum, even though his independence spectrum is on the higher side, he has a much more kind of other-oriented personality. He likes to interact, he likes to meet new people, he likes to meet new horses… It sounds like that's kind of coming through with what you're experiencing, as well. (John) Yeah he… you know, life is fun to him, and he has a little bit of uh… he likes to get into a little mischief and (Kaitlin) What does he do? (John) Funny things, you know… He won't keep his wraps on, he'll take his blankets off… He'll sometimes take the horse in the stall next to him. We'll come in in the morning and that horse has his blankets off, but they're in Crumbles’ stall, so he not only took the horse's blanket off, but pulled it into his stall, so we knew that that horse didn't do it. It had to be Crumbles. (Kaitlin) Yeah, caught red-handed there. (John) Yeah, yeah. (Kaitlin) That's so funny. (John) Crumbles really has, you know… I've been with a lot of, you know… worked with a lot of horses, but he has a very human-like personality, and I really feel that he thinks that we're friends. The funny thing was one time, I was at a show and I showed him in the conformation - the only time I did – and when we had to stand for conformation, he was all over top of me, like just goofing around and wanting to practically lick me and whatever. And finally, I had to like, “Knock it off! Like, back off!” And it was so funny, he was so flabbergasted that I did that. He was like, “Oh my God, you've never done that before!” And he was looked at me like, you know, “I thought we were friends!” It was like two friends got in the fight or something, you know? He was mad about it for the rest of the day. (Kaitlin) Yeah, like mad or sad do you think? If you had to pick an emotion. (John) Yeah not like “mad,” yeah. He wasn't mad. He was more like, in shock and upset about it, yeah. (Kaitlin) I wonder… with high extraversion people, they tend to want to be liked. Like, that's kind of part of the outgoing nature is they care a lot about what others think of them. (John) Right, exactly! Yeah. (Kaitlin) I'm not sure if that fully translates to horses but that sounds like what you're experiencing with Crumbles. (John) Yeah, those people, they want people to like them and then it really hits them hard when somebody feels mad or doesn't like them because… (Kaitlin) They’re like, “But everybody likes me!” Yeah, and I would imagine he probably likes to get a lot of attention, too, so… what is he like when he's not getting attention? Like if he wants it but… like, if you're just kind of standing near his stall and not paying attention to him, does he do anything to be like, “Excuse me. I'm over here!” (John) Oh, if he sees you in front of his stall, you know, he'll definitely come to the front of the stall. He's not going to just hang in in the background, no. (Kaitlin) Yeah. (John) I mean, unless he's really sleeping or something, but uh, no. He's always looking for someone to come over and tell him how great he is. (Kaitlin) Be the center of attention, yeah. I think that's some of the high Independence, too, because if it were a low Independence horse with high extraversion, they're very social and very other-oriented, but they're not as kind of pushy and in-your-face about it, whereas if they're high Independence and high extraversion, especially if the Extraversion is higher than their Independence, they're like, “Hey, look at me! Like don't you want to give me attention? Aren't I the best horse ever? (John) Yeah, like when he gets off the truck, he whinnies, and it's just like, “I'm here, you guys!” (Kaitlin) Yeah, “Don’t worry, guys! I've arrived!” (John) “I just won the championship this last week!” (Kaitlin) I love that. So then on the flip side of that, what part of his personality do you find the most challenging? (John) I mean, sometimes his work ethic could be a little bit… you know, he just wants to have fun, and so I think we have to keep it interesting for him, because if you ride him too many days in the ring, he's kind of, “Okay, I'm getting a little bit bored with doing this, and I'd like to, you know, go out on the trail or do something, you know, more fun.” You know, you'll be riding him around and all of a sudden, he'll just try to come back to the walk. He'll just be like, “I think I've had enough cantering right now. I think we'll take a break.” You know? (Kaitlin) Yeah. (John) And so that's the hardest part is just making sure that he keeps the enthusiasm that he always has all the time, because that's what's so great about him. (Kaitlin) And is there anything that you do in particular to add in that variety and kind of keep him stimulated? (John) Yeah, when I ride Crumbles, I’ll probably ride him at least a couple of days a week just out on the trails, or you know, in the fields. He loves going out for a ride. He doesn't have to be with other horses. He'll go with other horses or go by himself. Even when he goes by himself, though, he likes to talk a little bit. You know, he'll whinny a few times, but it's not like a whinny to other horses. It really is him just talking, you know? He first goes out on the trail, and he's letting everybody know that he's coming, and that's just the way he is. When I started riding him, I'd take him to the show and the first day of the show, he would be talking and whinnying, or in the morning when I would get up to ride him before the show started, riding from the barn to the ring, he's just talking and whinnying the whole time. (Kaitlin) But not in a nervous way, though. (John) Not in a nervous, excited way. It's kind of totally different. (Kaitlin) Yeah, that's so funny. I mean his Extraversion… his high Extraversion is his strongest spectrum, and so every time you say something about him, I'm like, “Yep, that's his high Extraversion!” Like being chatty and outgoing and expressive. He just seems like a really enjoyable horse to be around. Just very kind of social and engaging. Kind of like when somebody says, “Oh this horse has a lot of ‘personality’”… I feel like Crumbles’ profile is what they're thinking of. (John) Yeah, and he loves the shows and going different places and you know, that's what's so great about him is he loves the show life. And he loves being at home, too. He likes all of it. (Kaitlin) Do you find he's better at home or at shows? (John) I think he's probably… his work ethic is a little bit more at the horse shows, because he knows when it's important and he's on stage. And you know, at home he’s sometimes… he knows it's not that important. (Kaitlin) Does he get a little lazy at home? (John) Yeah, he could be a little lazy, and he knows me really well, so it's kind of like, you know, having a kid who’s a little spoiled. And you know, you always try to do things, you know… fun things with them. And then sometimes, I'll even have to have one of my riders, like Vanessa who rides for me, you know, ride him, because I'm like… He needs somebody else because he's just… he's starting to know that I'm not going to make him work that hard so he knows when I'm riding him and that he could maybe get away with things, because I just like him so much. But so occasionally, I put somebody else on him and they get him going forward or get him working a little bit more, and then he’s happy when I get back on. (Kaitlin) He's like, “Oh thanks, John is back!” Yeah. Is there anything that you have to do to prepare him for shows? (John) No, he needs a couple days a week of stronger flat work, but then, like I said, he needs days where it's just riding outside, you know? I do a lot of like cavalettis or poles on the ground, because really getting him to stretch and drop his head and neck down. He jumps whether it's a pole on the ground or a cavaletti, he always makes a jump out of it, but with the little jumps like that, it can really get him reaching for the ground and dropping his head really low. Because if you were to just start jumping big, he would be a little bit raised up and maybe a little higher headed than you would want. So you know, I'll do poles on the ground to a jump or a couple poles on the ground to a jump and just get him really low and stretching his head. And then you know, then adding a bigger jump afterwards so he gets super relaxed over the small jumps, and then you throw in a bigger jump. But he's not one that you would just go out and immediately jump around a course. You kind of start out lower and get him taking a real deep breath in front of the jumps. (Kaitlin) Does he tend to get tense? (John) No he… at the beginning, he was a little bit spooky and wouldn’t really get tense, but he would get to the jumps and really study them and squat down a little bit and get a little bit low, and then he would just jump really hard with his front end. So what we just try to get him to do is just get his head lower and get him to take that deep breath and get the slowness and softness off the ground instead of, like... he's so snappy with his with his knees and so square that, you know… encourage him to do that but in a relaxed way and not like, you know, have to try so hard and you yank them so hard. But I don't really… now that he's more seasoned, I don't really jump him that much at home anymore. If I do, it's just maybe once before the show if he hasn't jumped in a long time, just kind of reminding him to where I want him to carry himself and get him really stretching his neck out a little bit. You know, he's very compact horse, so I have to work on just getting them a little bit longer sometimes and not so short. (Kaitlin) Has he ever done kind of an award ceremony where they kind of canter around the ring? (John) Oh yeah, he's done plenty of those. (Kaitlin) What is he like doing those? Does he get nervous or anything about those? I know a lot of horses do, but I wouldn't peg him as… (John) No, he doesn't get excited or anything. No he's super calm about it, goes around with his ears up the whole time. (Kaitlin) Yeah, I can picture that. You mentioned he doesn't like to wear blankets, or I saw some pictures - I think it was The Chronicle of the Horse did a “Behind the Stall Door” of him - and there were pictures of him with his fly mask off and his blanket half off. So he doesn't really like to wear clothes that much, I'm getting the sense. (John) Yeah no, he doesn't. (Kaitlin) Is there anything else about managing him around the barn or at shows that takes his personality into account? Like the time of day that he gets turned out, or if he gets turned out next to anybody, or kind of anything like that? (John) Yeah, he wants to go out first thing. And I can tell if he hasn't been out, because he's talking more, and so I always you know, tell Kim, “Can you please make sure he goes out before I ride him, because it was way too much talking going on the at the beginning?” You know, but once he goes out, he loves going out, and then he's even more relaxed when you ride him. I think it's just good for his mind. If not, he's still like a little kid that has a little too much energy and excitement, so we try to turn him out first thing. But you know, he can go next to other horses and stuff. If another horse is acting up and Crumbles is next to them, he can get kind of goofing around and playing around a little too much in the paddock. So you know we try to keep him next to other horses that are not going to get him wound up. (Kaitlin) Yeah, and that makes sense because of that high extraversion, and even though his stability spectrum isn't on the low side… like typically, I would think high energy horses are on the lower stability - he's situational - but because it's lower than his high Extraversion, I do feel like there… and especially with this kind of other-orientedness… I can see if another horse is acting up that he's like, “Great, we're playing! Woo!!” And like, kind of joins in. (John) Yeah, exactly. (Kaitlin) Yeah, so he's obviously been super successful as a hunter both with you and with his owner Ariana and Paige who's leasing him right now. How do you feel like his personality has contributed to his success as a hunter horse? (John) Well, I think Ariana, she owned part of him for the beginning, and sort of waited for that year until he felt that he was ready for her, but right off the bat, he started getting more and more confident. And the funny thing was, with Ariana, she never rode him at the beginning, so, or jumped him, so by the time she started riding him, she didn't know about the fact that he could be, you know, a little spooky and that maybe some jumps, you kind of had to ride him a little harder at, you know? She just believed in him and trusted him, and it was really good for me to see the first time that she rode him, because then I thought, “Wow! She rode him so amazing!” Because she just, she didn't know him from before the ride, so she just rode him like he was a made horse, and then it really helped me to see that he's really grown up now and that I don't need to… I can trust him, as well, and I don't need to, you know, ride so hard. You know, I could just have that belief that he's going to go. And that's the good part. You don't have to ride him so hard, and he's got such a good canter that, you can either, you know, wait, or you can see 10 strides back if you want. I think Paige and Ariana, you know, ride a little bit different. I mean Ariana, you know, rode very loose and you know, Paige has done a lot more in the equitation and rides more out of hand and wants him a little bit more in a frame and shape, but he's really adapted to both ways. (Kaitlin) I was gonna ask how he handles having different riders, because you're the first person that I've spoken to on this podcast where there's a horse that has like many different riders, many different people ride him, and it's not just the same person that shows him is the one training him. So I was just really curious how he handles having those different types of rides. (John) Yeah, I mean and too, I ride him still a lot in between because, you know, Ariana was always going back and forth and you know, she mostly showed him. And Paige goes back and forth, so he's really ridden regularly still by me. And then at the horse shows, he would have been ridden by Ariana or now Paige, so you know, I don't know if I wasn't the one who rode him all the time and it was somebody else's horse, then I'm not sure… you know, maybe he wouldn't be the horse that he is or he would be a little bit different, but I think we've kept the program the same and that's why we really… At the end of last year, when we had opportunities to sell him - even though we could sell him - I wanted to keep him in the barn where I still rode him, and I know him so well and didn't really want things to change, so we can keep him and he could continue going the way he goes. So that's one of the reasons why we decided to lease him, so we can keep him and hopefully, someone else will keep him for a long time until it’s time to retire him in my farm. (Kaitlin) He will stay with you forever. That brings me to my next question about nature versus nurture, because you mentioned you know, “If it was somebody else riding him, I'm not sure he'd be the same.” So, I'm curious on your take of, you know… which do you consider more important in shaping personality: nature - like genetics - or nurture and training and environment? (John) I think nurturing. I think, you know, he might have had all the talent in his breeding and what have you, but other trainers have said to me before that, “That horse could have gone either way at the beginning, and it's good that that horse had you because he really made a turn in the right direction, and otherwise, he might not have been the horse that he is today.” (Kaitlin) Tell me more about when you said, you know, “In the beginning, it could have gone either way.” Tell me more about, you know, “the beginning.” (John) Yeah, I think people thought, he's a little spooky. A little bit, maybe looked a little bit fast over the jumps. Because he, you know, had to be ridden a little bit harder at the jumps. My style of riding is very... I'm not a very overly reactive person, and you know, I would never react too much to anything that he did, and then he would realize, “Oh, it's not that, it's not that spooky.” Because he's the type, if you ride him hard and you go a little fast and ride him aggressively, he spooks more, but if you ride him soft and a little non-reactive, then all of a sudden, he takes a breath and you know, realizes that it's not a big deal. Like as a first-year horse, I mean as a six-year-old, he went to Capital Challenge and had never gone indoors, and we ended up being grand champion at the show and winning the professional challenge against all these seasoned horses. And you know, I remember in the second round, the photographer like flashed, and for a minute he was gonna get real spooky, and if I would have overreacted, I think he would have overreacted. So you know, maybe the judges saw it and marked down a little bit for it - but it wasn't that big a deal, and he still ended up winning. (Kaitlin) What do you think led to the spookiness? Because I don't look at his profile and think he would be a really spooky horse. (John) Yeah, it's not like he would spook and really shy away. It would… his attention would get lost and you always have to make sure that you weren't riding at something, you know? He could go by something, but if you went head on at something, there'd be a couple strides of like “startled-ness” that he would have, and I think at first, he would puff up a little bit and he would be a little bit more up in front than you wanted, so he really needed a ride that wasn't going to… You couldn't force his head down, you had to kind of relax his head down. So somebody might have wanted to really, you know, be strong and try to get him to put his head down, but it couldn't come from force. It had to come from softness, and I would do like smaller classes and then bigger classes and smaller classes so he wouldn't try so hard. Like, I don't think he could do - even though he scopey - I don't think he could do the four foot, you know? I think he would just try too hard, you would lose that little bit of the slow softness that he has now. Yeah like, I don't know if he's a derby horse. I don't think he could just go into a, you know… he's a division horse. You couldn't just take him out and you know, jump him over jumps he's never seen and not expect him to get a little bit weak at the knees at some of them if they were very spooky. He'd always go, but it would be a little bit too snatchy. (Kaitlin) Yeah, I mean, I think you've done a really good job. Like every time I see a picture of Crumbles, like he's just, like you said, he just always looks so happy. And that's the goal really, is to have happy horses, and that's one of my goals for EqPI is to help people understand how they can be the best partner for their horse, because they understand their horse’s personality and how that influences the needs that they have when you ride them or manage them. Or you know, whether or not they'd even like to be a show horse, or maybe they need to be in a different discipline to be happier, that meets those needs better. Some horses - there are many that cross over in between disciplines, jumpers and hunters - but there are some horses that just really want to be a jumper, and there are some horses that are just way happier in the hunter ring. And if these personality profiles can help somebody understand and make some educated decisions that take that horse's personality into account, we can have much, much happier horses hopefully. That's the goal. (John) Right. Yeah, we don't show him… we've always been very good about not showing him, you know, week after week. We picked the shows that we want to do and even as the first year with Ariana, after I showed him in the first year of the 3’6” greens, I mean, I would only just do a few shows with him during the year. I mean, I didn't double division him. Or because, like I said, I just want him to stay the way he is and want him to keep loving what he's doing like he does, because that's… I mean, that's our job as trainers is to make the horses want to do it for you, and make the horses like their job. And he might have that personality to begin with, but that's what we have done with him, and like I said when I got an award last year with him and other two horses that I had that won so much, it feels like when you do it the right way and it turns out the right way, it's like having a kid, and you did everything right, and maybe the kid was a little difficult at the beginning, but now you've got some Princeton Harvard grads. (Kaitlin) Yeah, it’s all worked out! (John) Yeah. 

(Kaitlin) If you want to know your horse's profile, you can get a profile at the EqPI website which is www.equineperformanceidentities.com. If you like this podcast, we'd really appreciate if you showed us some love by giving us a rating on whatever listening platform you use, and if you know anyone who would like this particular episode, please share this episode with them, as well. Thanks for listening, and we hope you tune in next time!

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