Sparkys Shining Doll: The All Business Reiner

"Marvel" might have a cool, steady demeanor in the barn, preferring a good roll in the dirt over playing on the lunge line (even when he's cooped up at shows), but he is all business and ready to put on a show when he steps in the ring. Ty and Rhea Pole of Blue Collar Horse Company discuss what makes Marvel such a good candidate for giving the kids a ride to winning reining world titles.

*Disclaimer* The breeding practices for a stallion are briefly discussed which may not be appropriate for all listeners. Listener discretion is advised.

Transcript

Welcome to Inside Equine Minds, a podcast where I, Kaitlin Hendry, meet with trainers, riders and grooms to dive deep inside the minds of the most successful horses in various disciplines. We'll take you behind the scenes from the horse's perspective to learn about how these horses are trained and managed in a way that strengthens their mental game and fuels their success. This podcast is brought to you by EqPI, or Equine Performance Identities, which is a personality profiling tool to help you understand your horse at an individual level. An EqPI profile provides information about your horse's individual needs and motivations so you can manage and work with them in a way that brings out their best. An EqPI profile can also inform breeding and sales by providing information about temperament to ensure the best match possible between either horse and rider, or stallion and mare. Today's episode features Sparkys Shining Doll, otherwise known as Marvel around the barn. He is a 2012 Quarter Horse stallion who is a very successful reiner, and there's a couple of reasons that I'm really excited to talk with Ty and Rhea Pole of Blue Collar Horse Company about Marvel in this episode. For one thing, he's my first stallion that we've discussed, and so I'm really curious, from a breeding perspective, how much his temperament weighs into those decisions. The second thing is I am not a Western girl. I grew up in the English world. I know really nothing about Western so I'm just very curious from that perspective. And thirdly, Ty and Rhea only had him for a short amount of time before they had a ton of success with him in 2022, and so I'm really curious from their perspectives, what did they do differently? How did they cater to his personality to help him achieve that success? In 2022, he was both a world champion in the intermediate and the limited open, and he almost - I mean just barely - didn't win the open division in reining, as well. So a very, very talented stallion. I'm really excited to talk with Ty and Ria, but before we do, let's do a quick overview of Marvel's EqPI personality profile.

In order for me to create Marvel's EqPI profile, Rhea went online and completed the EqPI assessment. It takes about 10 minutes. It's just an online survey. She told me which characteristics and behaviors she observed and how often, and then by using her inputs, I create the profile. The EqPI profile measures four spectrums of behavior. The first spectrum is the independence spectrum which is the horse's preference to control or comply. The second spectrum is the extraversion spectrum which is the horse's preference to interact or isolate. The third spectrum is the stability spectrum which is the horse's preference for predictability or variety. And lastly, the fourth spectrum is the structure spectrum which is the horse's preference for clarity or flexibility. When I look at these spectrums, I determine whether they fall... I'll either say low, situational, or high, and I'll use various descriptors to give you a sense of how strong that is. So for example: "extremely high". And in addition to looking at the individual spectrums of behavior and where the horse falls on each spectrum, I also take a look at how the spectrums relate to each other, so is one higher than the other? And how does that influence the horse's behavior. So let's dive in... For the independence spectrum, Marvel is extremely high, so this spectrum is very strong for him. It is his strongest spectrum which means that it is going to influence his behavior the most. High independence horses like a lot of autonomy. They like to make their own decisions. Everything's kind of on their terms. They're very self-confident so they're not really motivated by pleasing. They're more kind of, "What's in it for me?" sort of mentality. For the extraversion spectrum, Marvel is considered very high, so still strong, but not as high as his independence. High extraversion horses, similar to people when you think of someone who's extroverted, is they are a little bit more social, more outgoing. They might like attention. Although because Marvel's extraversion is lower than his independence spectrum, he's probably only going to want attention when it's on on his terms. We'll likely see from in his high extraversion that he is more expressive and easier to read because high extraversion horses tend to kind of wear their emotions on their sleeves. His stability spectrum is situational, and for situational spectrums, the way that we really understand how they show up is by looking at how it relates to other spectrums on the horse's profile. So for example, his independence is the farthest away from his stability spectrum, and so with this relationship, when the independence is higher than the stability spectrum, they tend to be more kind of proactive and more kind of self, independent thinkers. Also, because his stability spectrum is lower than his extraversion spectrum, he'll likely feel comfortable approaching new horses or new people and not be very reserved in meeting others. And then his stability spectrum is also lower than his structure spectrum, as well, and so with this relationship, they tend to be horses that are much more careful with rules and once you teach them something, you don't typically have to train a lot on it, because they want to follow the rules, so once they know what's expected of them, they prefer to stick with that. The last spectrum for Marvel is his structure spectrum which is also very high. Very high structure horses like things to be very black and white. They like to mitigate risk. They don't like to be wrong. So we talked about some of the stability relationships and how that relates to other spectrums. A couple other notable relationships in Marvel's profile is that his independence is higher than his extraversion. Even though they are both on the "high" side, his independence is still almost double his extraversion, and so with that relationship, when the independence is higher than the extraversion, we see more task-oriented behaviors. So he's not really motivated at all by pleasing or through building relationships. He'll likely just want to focus on the job and just do the task at hand and won't be too bothered by not spending a ton of time with him and building a relationship with him. The last relationship that I want to mention is the relationship between his independence and his structure spectrum, because this is kind of important for this one. We've had a couple high structure horses on this podcast now, and a theme has been that they a little spooky. They're a little looky, but all of those horses that we've talked about so far have been low independence, and that's a big difference between high independence because low independence horses don't have as much self-confidence. Marvel's strongest spectrum is his high independence, so even though he is high structure and likes having the rules and clarity and wants things to be black and white and follow a program and his routine... because he is high independence, he has the self-confidence to work through changes. When a horse's independence spectrum is higher than their structure spectrum like Marvel's is, we say that the horse is more tolerant of risk, more comfortable with ambiguity. So we're really not going to see the same level of spookiness with Marvel, even though he's high structure, because his confidence and braveness from his high independence counteracts any sort of uncertainty and he's able to work through that himself. If you want to see Marvel's EqPI profile in more detail, it is available on the Patreon for this podcast. All paying members get all guest horse profiles for free, or if you're not ready to be a member yet, you can also purchase individual profiles on the Patreon, as well. Patreon members also get discount codes for EqPI services and early access to the podcast content. Now that we all have the same overview of Marvel's EqPI profile, let's go ahead and talk with Ty and Rhea. 

If you had to pick one thing about Marvel's personality, what is the best aspect of his temperament? (Ty) The best aspect? He will never let you down. When push comes to shove, he never one time... we bought him in the fall of '21, my wife showed him a couple times that fall, and I started showing him in '22, and it did not matter where I was in the country, how tired he was, what was going on, any of those scenarios... that horse 100% never let me down one time. If something went wrong and I look back at it, I probably let him down periodically at spots, but that horse never one time said no to me. (Kaitlin) What do you think drives that? Do you think he just wants to do what's expected of him or do you think he really wants to please or...? (Ty) So I think that horse is a very business-orientated horse. Like he wants to be the best of his ability all the time and it's too a fault, to be honest. (Kaitlin) Do you have a story, like an example of one of those situations? (Ty) Yeah, yeah. The year we hauled him for the world, we showed him at the reining futurity and the whole goal, when he went to the reining futurity in October... when we got there, we were leading the world in the limited and the intermediate. So my whole goal when we went to the reining futurity was, there's a $5,000 added shootout for the intermediate to go show in the big coliseum on Thursday. We had accomplished that whole deal right there. I got lucky enough to win the intermediate. I think I was third or fourth him in the open and and we got to go qualify. All I needed to do was go be good. All me and him had to do was go cruise around and go be good. And it was a pattern where we run up and down the middle on the left, and I hit a left lead stop to go rolling back to the right. I wanted more. I asked for it. He's like, "okay let's go do it." Both between me and him had a crosswire, and we hung up in a roll back. But it was just him wanting to be good, and I want to be good and just... it was everybody wanting to be too good when we could have just went, "Hey chill out dude! We're alright. We just got to go cruise around." (Kaitlin) We just gotta have fun today. (Ty) Yeah, yeah, and it was just him... I think he had been shown so much that year, but I think that just led up to the whole deal. I wanted to have one more big run on him, and he wanted to have one more big run and his wires and my wires just didn't mesh that day. (Rhea) That whole world show title run... Initially Marvel was, just to give you a little background on him, purchased... we buy and sell a lot of horses, and we wanted to have a stud that was bred as versatile as he is in order to cover mares, because we sell reiners, cutters, cow horses, and he just had a good set of bloodlines. So he wasn't purchased with the intention of doing what he's done. This has all been icing on the cake, essentially. Like Ty said, he started showing him that year and early in the year I went, "Shoot! You guys are doing good! You know, you're still limited open eligible. Maybe we can make a run at this limited open title." Well, they started running. Well danged if he isn't winning the open, the intermediate... So he's leading all the world titles going into this, and all year... the most interesting thing about that horse is we've had him here at our place here that we live at, our our new ranch, for four years, and I don't think both of us need both of our hands to count the amount of times we've rode that horse on our actual facility. He knows his job. Ty would put him in the trailer, go to the horse show, show him, come home. Doesn't matter if it was four o'clock in the afternoon when he came home or midnight, we turn him out the second he got home. That was his routine. He knew his routine. "I get on the trailer. I do my job. I come home." And literally would not ride that animal 'til he put him back in the trailer to go back to the next horse show. So a lot of it, the winning wasn't intentional. The animal was talented, and it just kept snowballing. And there wasn't an expectation like Ty said, so we go to that show and boom! Marvel would be good. Well, they came to the futurity, and this is where that report kind of plays in a little bit, and in the first day or two there, I was watching them, and they've always been great. They've just gotten along well. You could tell, Ty's like, "Man! You know, this is the last one." And the world show thing - the world title, I'm sorry - is very difficult because like he won reserve in the open by like 17 bucks, so you know what I mean? You can do all that work all year long, and it can come down to 10 cents, and you lost that. So Ty's like, "God, we got to do good here! There's the most money we've run at. We got to do good." So Ty starts pushing, you know. He starts asking, and like anybody should at a major event! And Marvel was just like, "Uh uh, sir!" Marvel starts giving him some push back and just kind of being resistant in a few maneuvers and kind of being angry. And Ty's getting frustrated. Marvel's getting frustrated. (Kaitlin) Butting heads. (Rhea) And that, you know, that relates so much to your report said. That wasn't his routine. It wasn't to go to a horse show and Dad crunch on him and say, "Hey, I want more." It was always like, "Oh! Well heck! We won it!" You know? It was always... it was always like, "Wow!" You know, this horse... we're sitting here, and we got plaques and trophies all around us, and it was all non-intentional. So Ty starts pushing on him, and I had to step out in the arena with him. I'm like, "Honey, that's not how you usually do this." You know? (Kaitlin) You're you're changing the rules on him. (Rhea) You're changing the routine and he's going, "Uh uh!" You know what I mean? "This isn't what we do, buddy." So at that particular horse show, because... and I don't blame Ty, you know. He was leading still, at that point, all the titles. We knew all the money from Europe hadn't been calculated, yet, so that one was a little bit of a, you know... that was a crapshoot. But we actually changed up the routine in the sense that we took away the stress. We took Ty out of the picture. I rode him. I loped him around. I warmed him up as I knew Ty warmed him up all year. And he would literally get on in the back pen and go show. (Ty) Yup. (Rhea) And they did so well, but it was us acknowledging that that was not that horse's routine. I mean, not just me seeing it, but it was also Ty going, "Oh yeah, you know... I am stressed out. I am pushing on him. I am doing it different." So you know, it was realizing that, and you know... As we've said and your report saying, you know, that wasn't his routine, and he said, you know... he gave us push back on that so that's... (Ty) He's so routined, he has not been rode since September of last year but maybe three... four... five times... maybe! I pulled him out and showed him in Waco two weeks ago and went and won Waco on him, and I hauled him down there, trot him around the night before, showed him the next day. He won everything, I put him back on the trailer and come home. Like, it is... he's very much, "This is my job. Let me do my job. Let's roll on about business." (Kaitlin) I mean, it sounds like he's very task-oriented which is... I mean, I definitely see that in his profile, because his independence spectrum is higher than his extraversion spectrum, so even though he has high extraversion and can be more social and like the attention, although it's all on his terms because of that high independence, but because his independence is higher than his extraversion, those horses tend to be more task-oriented instead of relationship-oriented. Like, I remember when I first talked to you, Ty, about being a guest, you were like, "He is not somebody's pet. He doesn't want to be loved up on. He wants to just do his job." (Ty) Yup, and he's weird because there'll be days... like today was a prime example. I walked in the barn this morning, and he always comes and says hi. Like he always... (Rhea) Loudly. (Ty) Loudly and obnoxiously. (Rhea) He's like a rooster when you walk in the barn. He hollers every morning. (Ty) And today, I walked by stall and he's asleep in the corner. Like, there's just funny little things. Now he may come back out in a minute and say, "Hey buddy, what's going on?" But it's 100%, everything that horse does is on his own terms. I mean, we're lucky enough that we get to go do it with him, but we just figured out early on how it was going to work. (Kaitlin) Yeah, and I know you guys had him for... you've had him for a few years now, right? And so from a training perspective, I'm curious... I feel like these high structure horses, especially if they're also high independence, they are great school masters once they know what the job is because they know the rules. They know the expectations. They know what the right answer is, so they're really good at teaching because... or like you said, you don't have to ride him in between shows. You can just take him, and he knows the job. But I do feel like when you're training them as a green horse, it can almost be even more challenging, because they don't know what the rules are, yet. They don't know what's expected of them, and you're trying to teach them new things, but they're maybe more stubborn because of that high independence. I'm just really curious if you know anything from his training days and what he was like as a green horse. (Ty) We know the man that trained him early on in his career. Dean Brown had him. Dean worked for Santa Hill Ranch at that point up there in New York, and we had spoke to Dean a little bit after we had owned him, and I asked Dean. I said, "What was he?" He said, "He's exactly back then what he is today." Bobby Avila Jr had him after that for the non-pro lady that owned him, and we have talked. We're good friends with Bobby. We've talked to him quite a bit, and that was the same thing Bobby did. Bobby just tried everything he could to just keep him quiet the whole time, and when they go show, they showed him. When they brought him home, they just loped him around. (Rhea) Well and to speak of that structure, there's been... you know, both Dean and Bobby have told us... you know, Bobby probably more so because he was the trainer for the non-pro, so when he'd have him around, he would have to you know, fix this or that, and there was certain things he'd say like, "Well if you do this or you do that..." and it's called... they call it his reset button, you know. If there's something, so it was very structured in the sense, if he's doing this, do that. It'll fix it, you know what I mean? So it wasn't like, "Well, that's new. We don't know how to fix that." It's like, "If he's doing X, do Y. Problem solved." I mean, even something to take it down to a maneuver... When I showed him last year, and there's been other trainers that have showed him here and there, and Marvel has a... he's a huge turner. He's super, super athletic in his turns. He gets down really low. He uses his hocks really good. But so with that comes, he wants to suck back into his turnarounds, and it's not ideal in the reining horse world for them to take a step behind, almost like how cutters, you know, practice a little bit. They'll step behind. And Ty... didn't matter if he wasn't with me at a show or what not, I could call him and say, "Well, how do I do this?" He'd give me the couple little things. I'd do it. Fixed. You know, that horse just knew. "Oh, that's the problem. Okay, I'll fix it. You caught me." You know what I mean? It was never a battle. It was like, "All right then." You know what I mean? It was just finding that very clear communication to that horse, and he would do it, you know? It was... if you were clear and he knew what you wanted, there was no argument. "Yep, I got it." You know but like any, he's all like - and your report said it, too - he's not fast-minded... (Ty) No he has a very slow thought process. (Rhea) ...for lack of a better term, a "hot" horse, so you could tell him something and he wouldn't get anxious about it. He wouldn't get upset about it. You could kind of train on him a little, and he'd stay with you. He'd try and figure it out. And then you know, he's just a really, really unique minded animal. Just very mature minded, very confident in that way. (Ty) That horse has taught me so much as far as preparing older horses than any other horse we've ever had. To be honest, when there's a situation you don't like, I'm like, "Hey, turn that one out for a couple days. Just go let it be a horse. Let's just forget about it's routine. Let's just forget that it gets role. Let's just..." (Rhea) We call it the Etch A Sketch. (Ty) We call it an Etch A Sketch here. Like, when things aren't working for us, I've learned: do less. Don't try to do more. "More" is not the correct answer here. Those older horses, we just Etch A Sketch. "Hey, you have three or four days off. Just get turned out. Let's me and you just forget about it all. We'll try this again on a different playing field." What happens is, and it's no different than us, their brain gets to working really, really hard. And I know mine does and Ria's does, and I feel like when you leave that horse alone or you leave that situation alone, you go back to it... I don't know if it's with a different frame of mind or a different thought process, but you go about it maybe with a little bit different attitude. (Rhea) Well just, yeah you just take away some of the anxiety about the problem. (Kaitlin) I'm curious because you mentioned giving them a few days off, I did see on your social media that he had a really bad abscess and had a number of months off. (Ty) So he's been off since this the first week of September last year. He popped an obsess in the turnout. And I mean, it was bad. Blew out half of his foot, and it was bad. To be honest, it was bad enough that I had the vet come look at it, because I thought we had broke a foot. Like, it was real bad. He's been off since September and about... what? A week before the NRBS? Rhea pulled me aside and said, "Hey, why don't you pull him back out? Why don't you go do something with him?" So I rode him for a couple days then, and then I took him to the NRBC and rode him for a couple days, and then I took him to Waco with us but the time off deal or the riding deal... that horse, when I got back riding him after that lengthy period of time, it was like I rode that horse absolutely every day. (Rhea) He does better in, I find, that he does better in structure, like when you're riding him, mentally. He doesn't... it just seems like he's a more happy individual when he's in his regular routine of... and we don't ride them every day. Heck! We didn't ride him every day when we were showing, but a couple times a week, you know, even if it's not on maneuvers. Just exercise. Just something to stimulate his brain. (Ty) He still wants to get on the trailer at... like when we go load horses to go the horse show, he very much believes he should still be in the first slot on the trailer. "Let's roll. Let's go." Very much, that's his thought process. (Kaitlin) So how did he handle all of that time off? (Ty) So to be honest, I was real anxious about him having that much time off, because he had been so structured, and I'd never been without him. Like from going to horse shows, Rhea showed him all last year, and we had never not had him at a horse show. And there was a little bit, at the start, where he was a little bit fresh and a little bit funny, but he just got to where the routine changed. (Kaitlin) So what other things do you do around the barn when you're at home or when you're at shows that take his personality into account? (Ty) He does not let me turn him out during the day, because you cannot catch him. If I was to go turn him out right now, nobody on this ranch could go catch him. (Rhea) He chooses his hours. When he's done, he's done, and that's when he's going to come. (Ty) So we got to the point where we turn him out at night and I'd catch him in the morning, and he would hang out... (Rhea) I think we actually discovered that during the summer, because we turn some out in the evenings here, because otherwise, it's like putting them on a you know, a stove, on a frying pan in the summer. So we start... we turn some out real early and then through the night while we're working. And we turned him out one night and then realized, heck! The next morning, our boys are feeding. Hell, he's ready to come in. We don't got to chase him around the pasture. This is a way easier option! So that's his turnout time. He goes out at the end of the day - four or five o'clock - and he comes in the next morning when everybody starts work - seven or eight. And then he feels like he's winning because he's made the choice. We're winning because we could actually catch him without investing a couple hours into it. And it's not like he runs from you. He just walks around like, "Nope, not interested." (Ty) He just won't let you catch him. And that's kind of his, it's kind of his routine now. Like at the end of the day, if I walk by there and I grab a hold of him, he just walks to turnout and he trots off. He might trot off 10 steps, lay down and roll both sides, and he walks and eats grass all night. He's not... (Rhea) That's probably been one of the other funniest things about him is, for as intense of an animal as he can be physically, I've never seen that horse buck or play in the turnout. (Ty) Never. (Rhea) He might trot or lope 100 feet here and there. I remember one time here, not too long ago, I was like, "Marvel's loping in the turnout. Is there something chasing him?" Like he was loping, it was very... he's just... he's not... that's why we always say he's very "all business," because he just doesn't... he doesn't play, or... I mean in the first five minutes you turn him out, you might see him trot a little, and he'll go holler and run to the corner, and that's the end of it. He just walks around. Like, it's the strangest... for as intense as he is, it's always shocked me that he's never been like a guy to go out and play, buck and kick, or squeal or carry on. (Ty) I feel like this deal that we're doing with you has kind of opened my mind up quite a bit, because his little idiosyncrasies that we just know or we just take... we just have figured out. Like at a horse show, when we went and rode him in a horse show, we'd go lunge him because there isn't a turnout. Well, he don't lunge! He'll walk and trot around, but all he wants to do is, he'll go walk 20 feet or he might walk 10 circles, he'll lay down and roll. He'll stand up on his own and go the other way, and he'll lay down and roll. And then stand there and go, "Thanks guys!" (Kaitlin) "I'm done!" (Rhea) Yeah like there's no... I mean, I don't care if you have a lunge whip. I mean, he's not interested. I had him in Vegas at the million, what? Last summer? (Ty) Yup. (Rhea) And I took him outside and all he wanted to do, he just laid down and rolled. And there we are, standing in front of the casino, and he's rolling and carrying on. And everyone's riding around. I'm like, "Sorry guys! This is my version of lunging!" I mean, everybody's laughing. He's like an old rope horse. I mean usually they want to get out and stretch and play and buck and kick a little. They've been on a long haul and been in the stall and, nope! He just wants to roll. And I always tell Ty you know, when he goes, "Has he rolled? Has he went and done his stretch and his roll today?" You know, he's got to have that routine in there. (Ty) And like, he's a pee-er before he shows. (Rhea) He's a pee-er... You have to probably explain that. (Ty) You take him back to the stall and he pees. Like, it's just the little things that we learned about him. It wasn't training him that we did anything different than everybody else did. We just figured him out. That was all. (Kaitlin) He's got to go to the bathroom. He's got to get his roll in. (Rhea) You got to warm him up. You got to allot time for, "Okay, how far are my stalls from the show pen? So how long do I need to walk? 'Cause he has to go pee before we show, or he doesn't function. He doesn't stop as well, because he didn't pee." You know, when you're at those big events when, heck! Your stalls might be three barns away. You got to allot that extra time. "Okay, I gotta get on him earlier, because I gotta be able to walk to the stalls and let him stand and do his thing. Oh and then we can go." You know, I guess when we're doing this, we get in the routine of knowing the animal, but when you start talking about it all out loud, all in one you know, situation like this, you're talking about it and then he realize how strange that creature is and what the personality really is when you start talking about all these things. (Kaitlin) Yeah, I mean it definitely plays a role, and I don't think we talk about it enough which is why I think this is so fascinating. (Rhea) 100% (Kaitlin) I think these conversations are so interesting. What other sort of management, like non-riding tips, would you have for Marvel? (Rhea) So he started in the breeding barn with us. He hadn't been... no one had collected him or bred any mares to him. And I would say... I think someone... I'm gonna take that back. Somebody had jumped him somewhere and they froze semen on him or something, but it was once or twice. I mean, but he is very... he's the guy that goes to the breeding barn. There don't have to be a mare in sight. He knows his routine. He knows, when he gets on the trailer first thing in that morning, where he's going, you know, and when he gets there, he jumps off, does his thing, gets back on the trailer. And he just, he knows. It's strange, because he knows that morning. I mean when I grab that halter, he's already hollering before you know he knows really 100%. He could be going to the vet for all he knows, you know? But he's pretty dang sure he knows what the routine is! But you know, he knows when he's there, what his job is. A lot of them studs need a mare in front of 'em. There doesn't have to be a mare on the facility. That horse will go do his job. He knows what it is, and that's probably one of the newer things that we've... that he's done with us, that he hasn't done with anybody else, is learning that. A lot of studs will... their personality will change when they enter the breeding barn. They might get, you know, more studded up or you know, they might ride differently. That horse... it never moved his needle. As a matter of fact, there was times when... I mean, it's kind of a joke around here, but he's better afterwards! You know? He comes home, and he's chill and cool and easy going, and we collect him even in the offseason just for that. Just to keep that routine. (Ty) We haul so many studs. Like, he's not the only stud we stand here at the ranch, and Marvel will always be, not the king at our place, but he was the first one here, and he knows it, and this is kind of his yard. And my wife bought a black stud here a couple years ago from Matt Mills and... (Rhea) Those two, in particular... (Ty) They do not get along. There's no... (Rhea) They eyeball each other and my black stud is... and I'd be curious to do it [EqPI] on him, because he's like... he's like the little guy - the little short guy - that's a tough guy in the bar, but really, if it came down to it, he's going to get his butt kicked. I mean, he will talk a big talk to Marvel, and Marvel will just look at him like, "Dude. One day... one day..." You know? He'll just kind of side eye him, and meanwhile, my Carl's squealing and kicking the wall when Marvel walks by, and Marvel just kind of looks at him like, "Yeah, you're full of talk." You know? So there's... it's watching him interact with other ones that way and just be so like... so sure of himself. (Kaitlin) He's got the confidence. (Rhea) Yeah where my guy, Carl, I mean, he acts like he's a tough guy, but... (Ty) And Marvel's walk... It sounds funny, but now that, like Rhea said, now that we're talking about it, there's little things like... that horse does not get in a hurry for anybody. Like, when you go unload him off the trailer at a horse show or you go walk him to saddle him, or you go walk him to the wash rack, wherever... it is very much at his pace. He walks around there like it's his outfit, and he owns it, and there ain't nobody going to tell him any different. (Rhea) Yeah, never boastful like walking around with his head stuck in the air. Just always levelheaded, like, "We'll get there when we get there." You know? "Your lack of preparation is not my emergency. We'll get there when we get there." That's just kind of his mentality. (Kaitlin) Yeah. How do you feel this personality suits reining? (Ty) So we... we changed it up here this... so Rhea's always and we've always talked about going to working a cow on him and stuff and oh... (Kaitlin) Doing cutting? Like cutting? (Ty) Yeah, we had roped on him a couple times. (Rhea) He took right to the roping. (Ty) He loved the rope horse deal. Um, there's a very successful rope horse trainer down the road that was at a friend of mine's place, and we went down there we roped with him. And I mean there was never any portion he's like, "No, I don't want to do this." He's like, "Yeah, let's go rope." But we could have went and showed him in the roping that day, and he had never been roped off in his life ever to our knowledge, anyways. And then I hauled him down there to go work the flag one day at a friend of ours place and... (Kaitlin) And just, sorry. To clarify, "work the flag." That's how you start teaching them to do cutting, right? Because you're like, pulling the flag back and forth. (Rhea) Yeah, it's like on two... it's on a pulley system so it's ropes on a pulley system, and there's a... they call it a "flag" which essentially is what it is, but those horses get trained enough to where they understand just to follow that flag. And then the rider will have a button, a control on their thumb. Yeah, a remote for it, so they can control or you can have it on settings, but to me, I mean, Ty was thinking... I mean, we all just wanted to see him do something different, but to relate it back to how your report is on him... he was like, "What is the purpose of this? Like, why am I going back and forth chasing..." Like the look on his face was like, "I am... I'm not understanding." Like, it didn't resonate, whereas the roping... I mean, he had a live cow in front of him. He had something to follow. He had a purpose, right? Whereas this was more like a flag on the wall, and you know... he could have cared... A lot of them spook at it or shy at it, because it's a bag! We all know how horses are with that. That is, you know, universal horse language right there if a plastic bag comes in front of one. And Ty moved it the first time, and he's like, "I don't... what are we supposed... what's the plan, boss?" I mean, Ty gets him to try and go back... and I mean, he never even looked at it. He was not interested. But we still are interested in trying to put him, you know, on an actual live cow, because he really tracked on the live cow in the roping. It intrigued him, but to see him be intrigued by that, but then look at that flag like, "Have you lost your mind?" You know? (Kaitlin) "You want me to chase that?" (Rhea) "What am I supposed to do? Why am I chasing this thing that's obviously tied to something, that's not going anywhere, so why are we chasing?" Just standing back and watching it, you know... I could see Ty trying to, you know, working him, and of course Marvel saying, "Yeah" and doing the maneuvers, like going back and forth, but he was like, "I don't... I don't get it" It was like trying to teach him math or something. He's like, "I don't understand." (Kaitlin) That's funny. So he has really high independence, right? That's his strongest spectrum. Everything's on his terms. He has a lot of self-confidence. And from what I... from the research I did on reining... again, I did not grow up in the reining world, but one of the things that I understand that you're judged on is the control that you have over the horse's movement. Is that correct? (Rhea) Yeah, yeah. "Willingly guided" is the term that's used a lot in the reining. (Kaitlin) Yeah, and so because he's so high independence, does that factor in to... is that like a challenge that you have to overcome or...? (Ty) I never found it personally. When we got him, at the point he was in his career, I did not find that at all a problem of his. What he trained like early on in his career, I don't know, but knowing about him later in his career, I would feel like his thought process would have all been, "Hey, if that's my job and willingly guided is where I want to be..." He is not a horse, to me, that ever wants to be in trouble. There's been some days me and him have said, "Hey, let's figure each other out, both of us." But I don't ever felt one time where that horse truly has come out of his stall or truly wanted to get rode and said, "You know, I'm going to be mad today." Like he very much is always looks for the right answer. He may not understand it, but when we got him late in his career, he had such a good thought process about his job that I don't ever remember me and him arguing. (Rhea) I think it comes down to, like, where your report talked about the routine, you know? A lot of our horses because we have, you know, they keep changing how many patterns. We have... they've added a couple more, but we have a dozen pattern let's say. 14 of them to be exact. Most of them are: walk to the middle, turn, lope off, do your circles, you know? Most, 75% of them, you know, doing quick math in my head... So it was more of him knowing, "Okay, when I get to the middle, we're gonna turn. I don't know what way, but we're gonna turn, so I'm going to..." You know what I mean? So there wasn't a lot of... (Kaitlin) Like there's enough ambiguity. (Rhea) He knew, yeah, and so that also was not only the good part of him. It's kind of also been his fault a little bit, because as horses get older industry, we deal with a lot of anticipation. They know what's coming, and because Marvel's been shown so much there's a few spots in him at his age that, I mean, and they all get it. They all get a little bit anticipatory. But the nice thing about him is willingly guided... when he knew, "Okay, my job... You're telling me to go fast, we go fast 'til you tell me to go slow." And he knows when he comes to the middle, he's going to change leads to go the other way and do it again, you know? Because our patterns are... our patterns are very routine, it almost... I think that's what's really fed into his personality of being routined. He knows he's going in there to do the job. He may not know the exact parameters of what he has to do, but he's got a pretty dang good idea when he's in the middle of it. So, you know, I did a ranch riding pattern on him just, what? Last spring? Just to do something different with him. And it really... it kind of engages the horses' minds a lot in our business. It's kind of been a thing that a lot of reiners are kind of going into a little bit. And I remember being in there with him, and there's some trot over poles in there as I came into the pattern. He kind of looked down and looked at them and... Marvel, one thing... I would I'd put my 8-year-old, I'd put anybody that's never rode. He's never spooked. He's not spooky. Even when he went to that roping pen that shoot was going off next to him, he didn't jump. Never spooked at the ropes. And he looked at those walk over trot poles and he went, "Those don't belong there." You know, he kind of gave it the side eye like, "What the heck?" And I had practiced a little bit out back, but to him, it didn't... "Whatever, we're walking over poles out back." But when he thought he was walking into go horse show and he was, where I'm dropping around the serpentine and he's like... I trot him up to the, he's like, "Okay, uh... I don't know what you're thinking, but this isn't what I do. This is..." So that was out of his routine. And he did very well in it. He actually won the class first time in there. I mean, he did very well. He's got the look. But to feel him kind of go, "Lady, are... Have you been drinking up there? I mean, this is not one of the patterns that we do. We're not supposed to trot. We're not supposed to go over these weird things laying on the ground." So I think the reining for him falls into his need for routine. (Kaitlin) Yeah, so that that brings me a little to my... I love asking people about nature versus nurture. Like, do you think he's structured because he grew up in reining or do you think he does well in reining because it meets his structure needs. (Ty) I think that horse would have been successful in any structured program whether they... early on in that horse's career or they wanted to do the cow horse on him or they roped off him or he was just a ranch stud somewhere... I think that the structure side of it, whatever that would have been early on in his career, he would have been content with that. (Rhea) And I think he... we know Dean Brown. He's also Canadian. We grew up around him. And Dean himself, his training, and I've never trained with Dean but the knowledge I do have, is a very structured program. He's very, you know, he's a very structured program. He's very methodical about what he does, and I think that those two meeting early on in Marvel's life may have contributed to... just been a little recipe for success for the rest of that horse's life, because he was taught in a program that maybe wasn't someone that was just... but I mean, when we all begin, we're not real sure, you know. We're trying to put a program together. We're trying to... does this work? Does that work? You know? "Oh shoot, that didn't work. Now I got to erase that and try and start from square one." Dean was very established. His program was very structured. And I think it was what set Marvel in a direction for success. Like I said at the beginning, we could talk to Dean now and say, "Well, he's doing this." And he'll say, "Well, do that." You know? And it works! So that really... you know... if I had to see Marvel as a human being, I'd I see him in the military, you know what I mean? He just... he's very, you know... He would just be in that form of structure. So I think that really, you know, and it happened to be that that he was born into a reining barn, and you know, that was that, and that's the direction that he went. But I think Dean... there's a lot to contribute to his program that set him up for that. It just worked, you know? (Kaitlin) Yeah, it met all of those needs. So you're breeding him now. How much does temperament influence the decision to which mare he breeds with or...? (Rhea) You know, it's tough when you're first starting out with one, because I mean, I've been around enough studs. I've worked at a lot of big barns and so has Ty, but I've been around a lot of stud barns, and you think one should produce this way and then they don't, you know what I mean? Well, and so it's really tough to know. You're almost flying in the dark a little bit. You're basing it on his personality, and so you're trying to make the right choices, but being as we haven't... I mean his first foals will be able to start later this this fall. (Ty) The yearlings are the oldest ones now. (Rhea) So it's kind of tough to know if we've made the right call yet. So right now, we're basing it on his confirmation and some of his personality traits, but we don't really know... you don't really ever know if you hit the mark until you kind of start to saddle them and ride them a little bit. (Ty) And I don't have one off the top of my head that I don't... that someone has sent us a picture or video or something like that... they all very much look like him. (Rhea) And we get so much feedback on their personality, on how they're like him. They're laidback. "This is the quietest colt we've ever had. It's the calmest..." and the one, the first... we only ended up getting one the first year. A lot of, which was his purpose was to breed mares that we were selling. So, a lot of the ones that we bred in that first year sold. Um, so I had one Wiz mare, out of a very good mare. The mare produced a bunch herself and gave us a little filly. And I remember, that filly... she couldn't have been a month old because I bred that mare in full heat, but I'd take that mare out of the pasture and that filly would stand by the pasture gate, on the other side, and look at me loading her mom like, "I'll just wait here. I'm good. I don't need to go with her. I'll be fine till she gets back." And I mean, you'd go over there and get behind her, and usually a baby... that thing wasn't a month old... They'll nicker and run up to their mother carrying on, you know. No. She just sauntered, just like he does! She'd walk at her own pace. And I took a video and sent it to Ty. I said, "This is Marvel. It's a carbon copy." Like, and we're hearing a lot of that back and across the board, that's the feedback that we get. They're just easy going, mature... (Kaitlin) Cool and calm. (Rhea) Cool, yeah. Cool cuc. So that's been an interesting thing to see that that has carried on a little bit, too. And it'll be really curious when we get to see them under saddle a little bit, too. (Ty) We always wanted to... we talked about this lots. I never wanted to own a horse - and if it ever happens that way, great - but I never wanted to own a horse that was discipline orientated. I always believed, and my dad was a horse trainer. We stood lots of studs, and we raised lots of babies and all that stuff. I wanted to make the whole industry better, whether it was the reining or the ranch riding or the rope horse deal or whatever. I wanted them colts to make that discipline better, whatever that discipline so choose, I didn't want to just raise a reiner, and we just didn't want to have a cow horse, and so far, everybody that's bred to that horse has called us and said, "This thing is so good minded. It is so independent. It's so personable and it..." That's... that means more to us at this point, because it's early on in his breeding career, than anything. (Kaitlin) Yeah, yeah, well, I can't wait, in a few years, to see where some of his... (Rhea) Yeah, we're like kids at Christmas waiting for this fall to start this little filly that we have out here. And you know, it's... having that barn name "Marvel," people are coming up with some really cool names for them and so it's been exciting. Everybody will message, "Oh! This is what I'm naming this one, and this is what I'm naming that one!" And you know, it's been fun for us to see people enjoying him the way we do. (Kaitlin) Yeah, yeah. I love that. (Rhea) Well thanks for having us be a part of it, we appreciate it! Like I said you get to talking and thinking. I think it'll open our minds a little bit to, you know, when you're in the middle of working with one in the future, you know... what is this animal? And what am I... I need to communicate this to them so how do I go about it that it makes sense, you know. There's you know, there's a psychology to it. You have to, in every aspect of it... (Kaitlin) Yeah, well and I think, even if you, even if someone's like against profiling, like I don't think any of us can deny that these horses have individual personalities. (Rhea) Oh not at all. Not at all. (Kaitlin) And I'm hoping that, you know, one day EqPI can kind of be the standard and how we talk about personality, because like you said, Rhea, we have our own biases as far as how we're interpreting the behavior. (Rhea) Yeah. (Kaitlin) but if we can all talk about it the same way at least or instead of... like a lot of these websites or sale websites or breed associations, when they... when you talk about temperament, they put it on a 1 to 10 scale, and you're just like, "What does that mean? Like what's an 8?" (Rhea) What does that mean? Exactly. And I think as trainers, we all talk about a lot, um, avoiding, you know... you get into big numbers. You get... you turn it into a factory line, and sometimes you can lose the personality aspect of that horse, because it becomes... and we have 23 stalls here, and sometimes we even feel like 23 stalls is too much, you know what I mean? With two of us, and we have we have a couple assistants and everything, but it's tough sometimes to stop and sit down and remember that... you mean, we all know our dogs have personalities. Our cats have personalities. You know, remember that these are animals that are sentient and then they can have personalities, as well. And you kind of can lose that when you get too many, and you get into the day-to-day grind of, "Oh, the horse show's coming up. Oh, we got to do this the trailer. Got to get packed. The oils got to get changed." You know? And you get to rushing around a little bit and forget that that horse might have not had, might not be feeling like itself today, you know what I mean? It just... they're still... they have a personality, and you have to take that into account. 

(Kaitlin) If you want to know your horse's profile, you can get a profile at the EqPI website which is www.equineperformanceidentities.com. If you like this podcast, we'd really appreciate if you showed us some love by giving us a rating on whatever listening platform you use, and if you know anyone who would like this particular episode, please share this episode with them, as well. Thanks for listening, and we hope you tune in next time!

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