Don John: Agreeable, yet Strict, Dressage Olympian

When it comes to equipping "DJ" for Olympic-level dressage success, Nick Wagman says it comes down to two things: structure and sugar cubes! DJ is as sweet as they come, as long as you prove your trustworthiness first. The people on his team can make or break DJ's day (and Nick's bones!) if they skip a step in his strict routine or if they don't allow time for a trusting relationship to develop. But when all things align, DJ is championship material as he has proven by his massive success in the sandbox!

Transcript

Welcome to Inside Equine Minds, a podcast where I, Kaitlin Hendry, meet with trainers, riders and grooms to dive deep inside the minds of the most successful horses in various disciplines. We'll take you behind the scenes from the horse's perspective to learn about how these horses are trained and managed in a way that strengthens their mental game and fuels their success. This podcast is brought to you by EqPI, or Equine Performance Identities, which is a personality profiling tool to help you understand your horse at an individual level. An EqPI profile provides information about your horse's individual needs and motivations so you can manage and work with them in a way that brings out their best. An EqPI profile can also inform breeding and sales by providing information about temperament to ensure the best match possible between either horse and rider, or stallion and mare. 

With the Olympics kicking off, I'm really excited to do a throwback to the 2020 Olympics. My guest today is Nick Wagman who's joining me to talk about Don John, more lovingly known as DJ, who is a 2008 Dutch Warmblood gelding owned by Beverly Gepfer who Nick took as a traveling reserve for the US Dressage team in... 2021, I guess technically. But they had a lot of success before then. More notably, in 2019 Nick and DJ were part of the bronze medal winning team, the US team, at the FEI Dressage Nations Cup in France, and Nick and DJ also won the USEF Grand Prix Dressage National Championship in 2019 at the Festival of Champions. Again, this all kind of culminated into being the traveling reserve for the US Dressage team for the 2020 Olympics in Tokyo, and so I'm really excited to talk with Nick about DJ. And before we do, let's do a really quick overview of DJ's EqPI profile. 

In order to get DJ's EqPI profile, Nick went online and took the EqPI assessment on the website, which is www.equineperformanceidentities.com. It's about a 10-minute survey. Nick told me which behaviors he observed and how often, and using his input, I was able to create a personality profile for DJ. The EqPI profiles measure four spectrums of behavior. The first spectrum of behavior is independence, which is the horse's preference to control or comply. The second spectrum of behavior is extraversion, which is the horse's preference to interact or isolate. The third spectrum is the stability spectrum, which is the horse's preference for predictability or variety, and last lastly, the fourth spectrum is the structure spectrum, which is the horse's preference for clarity or flexibility by using Nick's inputs, I'm able to determine where on each of these spectrums does DJ fall, and in addition to looking at the individual spectrums, I also look at how the spectrums relate to each other, and this gives another layer of really understanding DJ's temperament. For the independence spectrum, DJ is considered very low. This is actually his strongest spectrum, meaning that it will influence his behavior the most. Horses who are on the low side of the independence spectrum tend to not have as much self-confidence. They tend to need more reassurance. They're more conflict averse, and they need a good strong leader. Not necessarily a heavy-handed leader, because they are conflict averse, but an empathetic leader that's going to show them and reassure them and build their confidence. The next spectrum we're looking at is the extraversion spectrum, and DJ is on the slightly high side, so not a super strong spectrum for him, but he will have some tendencies for maybe being more social or wanting to be liked, liking attention, etc. His stability spectrum is situational so this means that it's not really strong one way or another, so the way that we really understand how it's going to show up is by looking at how it relates to the other spectrums on DJ's profile. For example, it is lower than his high structure, and when horses have a stability spectrum that's lower than their structure spectrum, they're much more careful with rules. They like clarity, they want things to kind of be the same day in and day out. DJ also has a lower independence spectrum than his stability spectrum, and when we see this relationship in horses they are a little bit more responsive instead of proactive. For example, he may need a little bit more time to adjust to changes, he may need a little bit more time to warm up to new people, even though he is slightly high on that extraversion spectrum. The last spectrum we're going to look at is that structure spectrum, and DJ is on the high side for this. This is his second strongest spectrum compared to his independence spectrum. With high structure horses, they really like clarity. They really like things to be very black and white. They can be kind of picky and demand accuracy a bit more, and this is especially true because of that relationship between DJ's high structure and his very low independence. This is a very risk averse horse, and so that clarity helps to mitigate that risk. Other notable relationships in DJ's profile between the spectrums includes his very low independence and his slightly high extraversion. That is a more other-oriented horse, and so he's going to want to be part of the group. He's going to really care about relationships and building relationships, but it might take him a little bit more time because of that situational stability and his high structure. He's going to care about trust a bit more, and so you're really going to have to earn it even though he really wants to... he's like, "I don't know... You know, we'll see. You'll have to prove it to me." If you want to see DJ's profile in more detail, it's available on the Inside Equine Minds Patreon account. Members have access to all of the guest horse profiles for free, or if you're not quite ready to be a member, yet, you can still purchase individual profiles on Patreon, as well. Patreon members also get discount codes for EqPI services and early access to the podcast content. Now that we all have the same basic understanding of DJ's profile, let's talk to our guest. 

Welcome, Nick! Thank you so much for joining me. I know you've been working with DJ for a really long time, since he is 5 years old, so I'll start with: what aspect of his personality do you appreciate the most? (Nick) I would say the fact that he's so agreeable. He is truly a horse that is happy to do his job and go to work every day. That is something I look forward to with him. Again, having worked with so many different types of horses, he's very complicated in other ways, but in general, his willingness and his happiness and excitement about coming out of a stall every day just makes him a pleasure to be around. (Kaitlin) Yeah, the low independence... that spectrum, that's his strongest spectrum which means that it's going to influence his behavior the most, and with those low independence horses, we do see that agreeableness, and they're very sweet, and they... they are not necessarily social - it depends on the extraversion spectrum, which he is on the slightly high side so I wouldn't be surprised if he is a little more social - but with those low Independence horses, they are really team players, you know? They want to please. They're more conflict averse, and so I can definitely see that in how it shows up and just, like, wanting to be with you and be, you know, a team player. (Nick) Yeah, he's a pleaser for sure, yeah. (Kaitlin) So then on the other side of that, which characteristic presents the biggest challenge for you? (Nick) I would say his lack of self-confidence, mixed with the fact that he's such a high energy, sensitive horse, that has posed the most challenge. Especially in his earlier days, developing him and getting him used to new experiences. Definitely something we had to take into consideration, because he was easily offended and easily... yeah, confidence, in new situations. If it wasn't handled with absolute certainty on our end, both through my, you know, my groom and my vet and myself, so to get him to where he was confident going to something as Grand as the Olympics... that was our biggest hurdle to overcome with him. (Kaitlin) Mhmm, and what do you mean by offended? Like spooky or was he grouchy? (Nick) No, no. Never never never grouchy, but he would be... if someone did something too quick or didn't... you know, I always tell people, he's such a sweet animal, and he wanted so much to be with his people, but if somebody new came along and didn't... I said, you always have to let him sniff your hand. You have to, no matter what. I, every day to this day, I still have to let him just touch my hand with his nose, and then he lets me do anything. And if you don't do those little things with him, he just... he just doesn't process it well, and then he gets a little bit standoffish. (Kaitlin) Yeah, yeah. He is also... his next highest spectrum is that high structure, and they are definitely - high structure horses - trust is a really big factor for them, and so even if they are higher extraversion like he is, you still need to build that trust with him. And in addition, because he is both high structure and low independence, which is where that low self-confidence comes from, when we see that relationship between those two spectrums, they are very risk averse horses. (Nick) Yes. (Kaitlin) So, I think that's probably where we're seeing like, "Ehhh, I mean, I'm social, and I want to be part of the team, but you know, you got to prove it first. (Nick) That's 100% spot on, yes. (Kaitlin) I did read when I was doing some research for this, I found an article in Dressage Today from 2021, you mentioned having a couple significant falls on him when he was a younger horse. Can you tell me a bit more about that? (Nick) That was truly related to girth and so that was not a wasn't a training thing really. We found out literally the hard way that he is cold backed and in tightening the girth, I took one step - for the both circumstances I was hurt, it was exactly the same scenario - and so his response to whatever it is that a horse experiences when they feel that nerve or that claustrophobia from the girth, his response was enormous. Whereas other girthy horses might give you a little bit of opportunity to get off or they freeze or they tighten their backs, his was, "This hurts me." And his flight instinct took over immediately, so that's... (Kaitlin) So it wasn't like, it wasn't him like pinning his ears and bucking. It was just like, "Ahhh!" kind of response? (Nick) Oh, it was like somebody took, uh, you know, a branding iron and got him in his hind end, and he just exploded with no warning at all. (Kaitlin) Oh my gosh. (Nick) But that's my point with DJ. He would walk through fire with me if he's feeling comfortable, but the second something out of the ordinary happened, his instinct was to just get the heck out of there. (Kaitlin) Yeah, that risk aversion and then... (Nick) That risk aversion, yeah. (Kaitlin) And then with... he's not super high on extraversion, but high extraversion horses are also more expressive, and so I find that when they are not feeling themselves or not quite comfortable, they really express it, and they share that with you. (Nick) Yes. (Kaitlin) It sounds like he takes that to the extreme, because he also has that risk averse relationship between his high structure and his low independence. He like, takes that to the next level. (Nick) Totally, totally, and that's why it was coming into like the... and maybe that's one of your following questions, but the... after the first incident, we devised a way I - because I had to feel comfortable getting on him every day - and so we devised a very regimented routine of what the steps were before I would mount him, and everybody involved knew that, and it went perfectly from then on out until, at a horse show, somebody forgot one of the steps, and it happened again. And so it was just again proof that that DJ needs his set routine and the set, you know, parameters of what goes on that's like, "This is how we do it." And if you stray from that, he knows you're straying from that immediately. (Kaitlin) And it just like, causes a breakdown. (Nick) Yeah, yeah, yeah. He doesn't process... he doesn't handle that variable that he wasn't expecting well. (Kaitlin) Yeah, and I can see that, in addition to that risk aversion, because his high structure is higher than his stability spectrum... when we see that relationship, it means they are more rule-oriented, and so I can definitely see, like, "We missed a step!" (Nick) Right. (Kaitlin) Like, "No no no! We have to go back!" So what other tips do you have, what other strategies would you suggest for working with DJ? Let's... maybe we can start from a riding perspective and then make our way to kind of managing him around the barn or for shows. (Nick) On a daily basis, what makes DJ so wonderful in so many regards as a dressage horse, for sure, he's just... he's a pleaser. So I mean, he learned everything really easily, and it was once I was able to manage his sensitivity and his lack of confidence in my day-to-day routine, I mean, he just jumped up the levels as quick as any horse I've ever had. So, um, training with him was really just about health-wise, you know, finding the fitness level that he needed, and just keeping it on a very, very regimented routine. I'm a very regimented person, also, so that fit really well into my personality. So yeah! Getting from tacking up, to getting on, to me riding him, to cooling down and going back to get cleaned up... it was a very similar process every single day and that really worked with him. (Kaitlin) You've been riding him since he was five, I think I read? (Nick) Correct, correct. (Kaitlin) So how did you approach the training where it just clicked so easily. (Nick) He just was open to all the new things that came along with moving up the levels. And with a lot of young horses, you learn very quickly, they need variety. They need different changes of atmosphere or scenery... DJ just isn't one of those horses and so... and where DJ lives is at his owner's home, and so it's not this big barn with a lot of activity going on and a lot of other horses. He was often there with just one other horse in their backyard in the nice arena. He has a nice big paddock, but his life was really a lot of the times just in that smaller environment, and he really liked it. But I was always shocked that going to the shows, and then all of a sudden going from this little bubble to this big new world, as long as we did everything that he was familiar with, he handled that really well without having to have much exposure to it prior to being there. (Kaitlin) That is interesting. I mean, I do find the more I talk about personalities with people and their horses, those high structure horses... I've heard a number of professionals say, at this point, where, if they're high structure, they just follow the same routine at the show as they do at home, so that the horse is like, "Okay, I'm in a new environment, but we're doing the same things. We warm up the same way." So they have something to fall back on and build the confidence from in a new environment. (Nick) Absolutely, and I can't emphasize enough how important DJ's people are to him. When we started traveling all over the world, having Jose, his right-hand man, who is just amazing, like, be with him every step possible, DJ just had the confidence to go do all of this. So yeah, he really taught me how willing a horse is as long as the trust is there. Because I think, in the wrong hands or treated the wrong way or rushed, I just think DJ would have crumbled faced with all of the new challenges that becoming a top level equestrian athlete is, and the travel and the unfamiliar things you walk into, and so, it's been a real fun process with him. (Kaitlin) And were there certain things that Jose did to make DJ feel more comfortable at shows and traveling? Or it was just sticking with that routine? (Nick) It was routine, and also the amount of time that Jose and I spend with DJ, DJ really is our horse. And it's funny... and DJ's such a routine-oriented horse, Jose has him ready, you know, for me in the mornings, and then sometimes, he walks him down to the arena but while I'm still getting my boots on or whatnot. But DJ won't go down into the arena until I've pet him, and I've given him one sugar cube and it... we laugh! It doesn't matter how much we say, "No." He's like, he will plant his feet. He demands a sugar cube. I give him one little sugar cube... (Kaitlin) And then he's ready to go. (Nick) ...and then he'll walk down to the ring, happy as a clam, yeah. It's to that level of routine that DJ is used to, so... (Kaitlin) Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. (Nick) For as much as he's a product of his regimented schedule, I think one of our biggest "aha" moments with him and our breakthroughs in terms of confidence building was when we were actually in Europe, and there was a beautiful forest next to the stables we were at, and we started going on walks through the forest. And at first it was... DJ was like, "Where the heck are you taking me? This is terrifying!" And then by the end, I was on a long rain, and he was dragging me through the forest. And that really changed - after that, I noticed his confidence level at big horse shows and big venues and so, that was something that I learned: that even though he blossomed and was doing so well, he did need, for his own development, something other than his bubble. But it only worked, because I had access to it on a long-term basis. And I watched him go from being terrified to loving it. So in terms of getting his personality or dealing with a personal like that, that was a bit of information that I never thought about it until we just started talking about this so much. That was a pivotal point. (Kaitlin) Because it just kind of stretched his bubble a little bit every day or...? (Nick) I think it showed him that he was okay, and... (Kaitlin) Yeah, you survived. (Nick) And like I said, had I gone on that... had someone said, "Okay. Today you're going to walk through the forest from start to finish." He wouldn't have handled it well. He wouldn't have done anything bad, but it wouldn't have been an enjoyable experience for him. But the fact that we got to do a little bit, and then a little bit more, and then a little bit more. Like I said, once he decided it was okay and fun, he loved it! And then we ran into deer, and we... and sometimes we got lost in the forest, and I was like, "I don't even know where I am!" It didn't matter! And then, it just changed the prize giving ceremonies. Those were a huge issue for him and like, I just felt him get better in those, and so... (Kaitlin) What was an issue about them? (Nick) Oh the energy from the other horses. If the other horses started to act up, that meant fear for him. He was fine walking in. He would stand there. He would, they would listen to the national anthem, but then as soon as that honor lap music turned on, and horses started to spin or twirl... I mean, it was kind of like when I had the girth too tight, he was like, "Get me out of here!" It was really a hard thing for him to contend with. (Kaitlin) So what did you end up doing? You just took him on these walks in the forest, and then he got better? (Nick) No no no, but after that, there was a noticeable difference. But Jose led me into every single honor round. He stood there with him, and then we would play it by ear. If it was a calm enough thing, I would do the lap of honor. Otherwise, we would excuse ourselves and take him out of that so that he never got to that point where it was that upsetting for him. (Kaitlin) Yeah, that's really nice that you did that, because I feel like a lot of people would feel the pressure to do the ride around the arena, and it's nice that you would listen to him. (Nick) I'm adamant about that. I think if you really talked to a lot of riders, they would all agree that that is a real unfortunate thing that somehow, we've subjected these horses to... that they have to race around and deal with this screaming and clapping, and it's a tough thing for most horses. And then have to go back into that same arena the next day and walk and not remember what they just did! (Kaitlin) All the trauma! (Nick) Yeah, yeah. It's a rare horse that doesn't get impacted by that. (Kaitlin) Yeah. (Nick) And I'm sure, through exposure, you can get most horses better at it, but it's... I don't think any horse likes that. (Kaitlin) Yeah, and maybe you can confirm or deny this, but I feel like a lot of these really upper level dressage horses are these more sensitive, high structure horses, and that's kind of what makes them so good is that they're careful and you don't have to be kicking every stride to keep them going, but then... yeah, like you put them in an arena full of people clapping and cheering... like, those two things do not really go hand in hand. (Nick) Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I watched some of the really top riders now, in these big stadiums, and those very few horses, they tolerate it! And I'm like, I would love to know what went into getting that high strung, hot, sensitive horse to get to the point where they could handle that. As a rider, that would be, I think, very important to me. I would love to pick other top-level riders at that level and see how... what did you go through? How did you get to that point? DJ definitely is not one of those horses that I think would ever go through a stadium with 10,000 people cheering. That was one of my concerns at the Olympics, and I didn't... I was the alternate, so I didn't compete, but it was also during Covid, so there was very few people there. No spectators there. So very different atmosphere riding in that arena without people in it, as opposed to with people in it. (Kaitlin) Yeah, for sure. Obviously, DJ's super successful in dressage, right? He's been to the Olympics. You've won multiple Grand Prixs on him. How do you think his personality factored into that? (Nick) I think two things... I think the fact that he enjoys his work. I think dressage really is the right discipline. He's very suited to being a dressage horse. One: because he finds the work so easy, and mentally, because I think he's such a willing participant, that there wasn't a lot of drilling that had to go into getting him ready for a show. We didn't have to ramp up the training intensely to get him ready, so because everything stayed the same, to be able to perform the Grand Prix test every time we needed to do it, it just... it wasn't this extreme thing that we had to, all of a sudden, go try to do. I don't know how to put it into words. I think because he just found the work so easy, it allowed me to go to these shows and maintain a very familiar situation for him. Our biggest struggle was physically, he had uneven feet and that plagued his right front leg, and we just always battled little tiny injuries that got the better of us. But it had nothing to do with his personality or willingness to be a dressage horse at all. (Kaitlin) Yeah, I mean, he's so rule-oriented that I would imagine, once you trained him to do something... well, tell me if this is right or wrong, but I would imagine once you trained it, there wasn't a whole lot of touching up that needed to be done. Like, once he knew what was expected of him, he would just... he knew the job. (Nick) He knew the job, and working with the coaches that I worked with... You know, they... a lot of them were like, "Okay, we got a show coming up. I need to do the test." And I kept saying, "I don't need to do the test." Or, for example, I never did the one-time changes in my warm-up, and it would drive my coaches nuts! And I'm like, "You guys, you have to trust me! I do the twos, and we don't touch the ones. He knows the ones, but if I do the ones at the show, he's going to be thinking ones." And that's exactly, you know, how you develop that relationship with the top-level coaches is because, you do know your horse so well, and you do know what they need. Drilling him or making him go through the patterns excessively, did not help his... because he, then he knew something was different, and he started getting worried about it. (Kaitlin) So you almost had to catch him off guard? (Nick) I wouldn't say catch him off guard. It's like, in my day-to-day training, I would do a little segment from the Grand Prix every once in a while, so he was familiar with the geometry, and he knew if we did a half pass right steeply, then there would be a left one coming up. But I didn't do it regularly, and I didn't feel the need to ramp that up coming into a horse show, and certainly not in the warm-up of the day of a competition. (Kaitlin) Because he would just start to anticipate? (Nick) He would start to anticipate, and if his body and his mind and all of the little - the familiarity of our basic training - was there, the warm-up was about suppleness, about making sure he wasn't too hot, about making sure he was feeling good left and right, touching on little things here and there. It wasn't about the actual test. And a lot of horses need that. I have other horses where I have to ride the actual lines of the test leading a week or two up to the show so that it doesn't surprise them when we do it in the show arena. He just wasn't one of those horses. (Kaitlin) That's really interesting to hear. I love hearing all the stories like that. So, I was looking into his breeding a little bit. He is by Johnson out of Lindalie, who's by Good Times. (Nick) Correct. (Kaitlin) Are you familiar with Johnson or Lindalie personally? Have you ever met them? (Nick) I have not met either personally. I have worked with several other Johnson offsprings, and I also have worked with another one or two Good Times, but I do not know the actual sire and the dam. (Kaitlin) Did you find any similarities across the offspring? (Nick) Physically, yes. The several Johnsons that I worked with, they look similar to DJ, but I think the Good Times influenced him in a way that I can see is different than the other Johnson's that I've worked with. (Kaitlin) Yeah, I'm asking these questions, because I'm sort of getting to the nature versus nurture discussion when it comes to personality. Do you feel that heredity or upbringing play a bigger role in shaping personality? (Nick) Oh gosh, I think that's like, the chicken or the egg question. That's really a big one, because they obviously they have personalities innately in them. I am not a breeder. I don't have a lot of experience with horses as foals, so I don't know what goes into and how much the human or nurture aspect of them in their early, early stages of development. All I know is that horses that are treated incorrectly - I don't necessarily mean that in an abusive way, but I watch a lot of people not pay attention to the horses correctly or think the horses need to fit into a certain mold - you start seeing consequences from that and that does impact their personalities. So, I think really both are probably very strong players in this. I don't know. I'd have to really think about which was a bigger influence. I know that if we didn't, for example with DJ, pay attention to what he was telling us, it would have gone in a very different direction, and I think that falls solely on the nurture aspect of it. (Kaitlin) It could have just spiraled and gotten worse. (Nick) He would have lost his trust. He, you know... he would never have done what he's done. So, this is a very, probably very good example. I, after my accident, I of course became a much more timid rider on him for a while, and he never showed me any signs of that bothering him until we started going to horse shows, and all of a sudden, he started getting very nervous about other horses coming towards him in the arena, in the warm-up arena, which he had never done! I realized it was my apprehension that he was picking up on, and so, within a matter of weeks, I changed something completely in his personality that had not been there before, or his behavior that not been there before. (Kaitlin) Right, the behavior. Yeah, because I think with that low independence, because, like you said, they don't have that self-confidence to carry them through that, they're really relying on the horses and the people around them to kind of help in those scenarios when they're not as confident. And so, I think he was like, "If you're not sure, why are we not sure? Like, why do I need to be nervous right now?" (Nick) Right, absolutely! (Kaitlin) I mean, I think that's probably the case for a lot of horses, but there are some that are just much higher on the higher independence spectrum where they're fine taking the lead. They're like, "Yeah, cool. I'll take it. I'll do it. I got you." (Nick) Or they, yeah, they take advantage, right? If you lose your confidence, then the horse sometimes misbehaves. It's like, okay, they try to get out of work. DJ was more like, "Gosh, you're scared. I'm going to be scared!" (Kaitlin) Yeah. (Nick) And I'm just using it as examples for how influenced they are by their surrounding or their people or you know, they're getting a lot of their information as domesticated animals from the people handling them. (Kaitlin) So you keep saying "hot and sensitive," and I want to dig into that for a little bit, because I'm curious what your perspective is. For me, I picture hot and sensitive as being associated with two different spectrums. So the sensitivity and like, sensitivity to aids and new environments and that anxiety, if you're asking them to do something that they don't know how to do or in an unfamiliar environment, or you change the routine... That kind of sensitivity, I think, is associated with high structure. The hotness as far as energy, for me, is... I interpret that as being associated with low stability. And DJ's situational stability, and so I'm curious if there were instances where maybe he was sensitive but not hot, or I... I guess I just want to dig into that a little bit more, because I just hear you keep grouping these together, so I'm curious what your perspective is. (Nick) Yeah, and maybe that's just, you know, something that we have just gotten used to saying: "Oh, they're hot and sensitive." I agree with you. When I say hot, I'm referring much more to the energy and in my opinion, he's a high energy horse. One: as a young horse where he needed to be lunged, for sure, but then at a horse show, the first day on the lunge, you know, he was just breathing fire! And so there was that hot... he needed a longer warmup in terms of getting the energy to a point where his energy didn't get the better of him, and he was able to relax in the test itself. The sensitivity comes from, yes, he's very affected by the little things. It takes very little physical effort to get an aid to come through on him. He's a very sensitive horse when it comes to the environment, or if another horse was acting up, he'd pick up on that energy. So yes, they're two different things, but with him, they go hand in hand. (Kaitlin) You said you still lunged him at home because that was part of his routine, right? (Nick) Yes, and then as he got older, then it turned into: we just had to jog him up and down a couple times the length of the arena. It was just to make sure, at home, that the girthiness was not ther. So yes, as he got older and more aware and became more familiar with the routine, no, I didn't have to lunge him like I did as a five or six or a seven year old. But that was definitely - certainly my first trip to Europe, for example, where we did big things - it was one of the first things I asked, you know, the chef d'equipe, I'm like, "These venues that you're taking us to, there has to be a safe place for me to twirl him around a couple laps, because I won't be able to get on him safely." And that was something we really had to take into consideration. So as a sensitive horse, those are the kind of things that I was facing. (Kaitlin) And did you lunge for a long time or was it just, you know, just to let him get his nerves out? (Nick) As a young horse on the first day of a show, if I let him tear around, he would just wind himself up more and more, so it was a lot of... and he got to the point where he knew. He was like, "Please let me. Please let me buck and twirl and do my thing!" And I was like, "DJ, you can't. You can't. You can't." And I would stop him, and we would walk, and then I trot him again. So it was a lot of me helping him learn to cope with that hot-ness. (Kaitlin) To regulate, yeah. (Nick) Yes, he really had to learn how to regulate it. As an older horse and a seasoned horse, we got past that. I didn't need to do the lunging part of it. It really was, "Hey, we're here." He knew why we were there, and as long as I jogged him up and down a few times... (Kaitlin) If you ever gave him a couple days off, what was your next ride like? (Nick) So at home, I would often be gone for the weekends giving clinics or whatnot, and then so on Monday, earlier on in his younger years, yeah, I would definitely put him on the lunge line, and he would be fresh. About two days as an older horse, I felt pretty good. We just kept the jogging down. We just did our jogging. It also would depend on weather and what not - what was allowed to happen on the two days that I wasn't there, you know? If he was cooped up because of bad weather, then yes, that was a different situation, but on a normal day and as long as he got his normal walking in and time in the paddock, I felt pretty good about it, and he felt pretty good about it, yeah. (Kaitlin) Yeah, cool. Thanks for diving in. It's just with the situational stability, I was curious kind of where that was showing up. That's why I was asking all of those questions, because definitely with the high structure being higher than his stability spectrum, I can see... like they do much better kind of in a program and with the rules and that sort of thing. (Nick) Yeah. (Kaitlin) So yeah, I was just curious how that showed up in an energy capacity. Well, thank you so much again for joining me. (Nick) You're welcome. It's fascinating and talking about it and reading it does make you think about things in a more concrete way whereas, as I've been doing this for so long, you do... you just kind of learn as you go along about each horse individually, and then put that in your back pocket if have another horse with similar issues or strengths or weaknesses. But to actually have it in writing and a system that you could go back to and reference is really quite helpful, I think. 

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