Villanueva Conrad: The Bridleless Grand Prix Jumper

You read that right.... BRIDLELESS. Brendan Wise and his gelding Villanueva Conrad (aka Lyric) are determined to do what many have deemed impossible. They're making a name for themselves for showing in the jumper ring with only a neck rein... And not just any jumper class, but the Grand Prix classes! What makes Lyric a good candidate for bridleless work? Are there personality prerequisites to do bridleless work? How does Brendan prepare Lyric to show in these "fish bowl" environments? These are all questions that we dive into to get a peek inside the mind of Lyric, the bridleless Grand Prix jumper.

Transcript

Welcome to Inside Equine Minds, a podcast where I, Kaitlin Hendry, meet with trainers, riders, and grooms to dive deep inside the minds of the most successful horses in various disciplines. We'll take you behind the scenes from the horse's perspective to learn about how these horses are trained and managed in a way that strengthens their mental game and fuels their success. This podcast is brought to you by EqPI, or Equine Performance Identities, which is a personality profiling tool to help you understand your horse at an individual level. An EqPI profile provides information about your horse's individual needs and motivations so you can manage and work with them in a way that brings out their best. An EqPI profile can also inform breeding and sales by providing information about temperament to ensure the best match possible between either horse and rider, or stallion and mare. Hey everybody! Welcome to my very first episode of my new podcast, Inside Equine Minds. I am super excited to have you here, and I am thrilled to have such an interesting guest for our first episode who's doing really cool things. You may have seen his videos floating around social media, because he has been making waves in Ocala this past winter doing jumpers bridleless, up to the Grand Prix level! And if you've seen these videos, you know who I'm talking about. If you haven't, then I am honored to introduce you to Brendan Wise and his gelding Villanueva Conrad, also known as Lyric. I thought for my first episode of this podcast, I have to get Brendan on, because I'm so curious what sort of personality or horse temperament makes Lyric a good candidate for bridleless, and if other people are interested in trying bridleless work, are there certain sort of prerequisites related to personality that would make a horse be a good candidate for bridleless work. And I had so many other questions, but before we talk to Brendan, I want to do a quick overview of what EqPI is, what it measures, how I create the personality profiles, and give a summary of Lyric's EqPI profile so that way when we are talking to Brendan, we're all on the same page. The EqPI assessment and profiling is based on the trait theory, the psychological trait theory of William Moulton Marston. This trait theory measures four spectrums of behavior. The first spectrum is called "independence" which is the horse's preference to control or comply. The next trait or spectrum of behavior is "extraversion" which is the horse's preference to interact or isolate. The third spectrum is "stability" which is the horse's preference for predictability or variety, and the last spectrum is the "structure" spectrum which is the horse's preference for clarity or flexibility. In addition to looking at where the horse falls on each of these spectrums, which I will indicate by saying, you know, very high or very low, I also look at how these spectrums relate to each other and by looking at the individual spectrums and the relationships between the spectrums. This is what gives the overall personality profile for the horse. I do this through a survey that is accessed online on my website: www.equineperformanceidentities.com. It's about a 10-minute survey. It's basically a list of different characteristics associated with the different spectrums, and you tell me how often you observe these behaviors, and using your inputs, I then determine where the horse falls on each spectrum. So now let's look at Lyric's EqPI profile. For the independence spectrum, Lyric is considered very low, which means that he probably doesn't have a ton of self-confidence and relies more on whoever he is with or whoever is guiding him to give him that confidence and to give him direction. He will really want to please and be a very willing participant. Low independence horses - and people - really are very kind of team oriented, and they want to be part of the group. They don't like conflict very much, but they don't have a lot of self-confidence. For the extraversion spectrum, Lyric is also very low, which means that even though, with his low Independence, he's going to be more kind of cooperative and sweet and more of a team player, he's not super extraverted because of that low extraversion. So he's not going to be super animated. He's probably going to process things more internally. It might take him a bit more time to warm up to new people. He'd probably prefer to stick with who he knows, and this is especially true because for the stability spectrum, he's considered very high, which means that he prefers to be more methodical, maybe a more steady horse in the way that he goes. His energy doesn't build up a lot over time, but he also likely values more long-term relationships, because he likes to stick with who he knows, and it takes him time to build those relationships. Trust also is a big factor for him. It takes him time to build trust, but trust is very important to him, because he is considered very high on the structure spectrum, as well. High structure horses like things to be very clear. They like to mitigate risk, and this is especially true because of that relationship between his low independence and his high structure. These are very risk averse horses, and so by sticking with who he knows and taking time to sort of prove trust to him and wanting to know exactly what the right answer is... these are all ways to meet the needs of a high structure horse. Other notable relationships is that his stability is higher than his independence spectrum, and so for horses that have this relationship, we say they're a little bit more responsive instead of proactive, so he likely will wait to be told what to do versus trying to figure out what the next question is or trying to make his own decisions. Instead, he wants to likely be more directed and be more of a willing participant than to make his own decisions. If you want to see Lyric's profile in more detail, it is available on the Inside Equine Minds Patreon account. Paying members get access to all of the guest horse profiles for free or if you don't really want to be a member at this time, you can still buy the individual profiles on the Patreon account, as well. Patreon members also get discount codes for EqPI services and early access to the podcast content. Now that we all have a basic understanding of Lyric's EqPI profile, let's talk to our guest of honor. Welcome Brendan! I'm so excited to have you on. I want to start with hopefully an easy question... what's your favorite thing about Lyric's personality? (Brendan) Favorite thing about Lyric's personality I would say is twofold. The first would be that he's very uh, at least in the barn and such, he's very quiet and he's very stable. He's very consistent with the way that he is. He is interested in people, but not to the point where he's you know, pushing to get into your way. He's fine with you coming and meeting people. Though sometimes he's a little bit wary of people in the beginning, but certainly he's very consistent with the way that he interacts with other horses and with other people. So, I love his consistency, and then he's a little bit of, not necessarily quirky, but he's... because he's not always super independent, he is a little bit of a weirdo sometimes with just the strangest things. You know, just the strangest things might be, as far as... he, you know, doesn't particularly love food or treats for the most part, so when people offer him something, he's very skeptical about it. He sniffs it, and goes back and forth, and he looks at. He's like, "What is this? What are they offering? I'm not sure..." It's all this type of thing. And the same thing happens like when he trailers, he doesn't particularly drink a lot. Not because he doesn't want the water, but because he's scared of me offering the bucket with the water inside of it. He's... "I know that that's a weird bucket, and I hear splashing inside. No thank you." So, he'll do the same thing. He'll kind of sniff it and blow at it, and then give it the eyeball, give it the eyeball, back and forth, and he's just... he's very skeptical of things in general, which is kind of makes him a little bit of a fun weirdo at times. (Kaitlin) Yeah, and he's like that with everybody? Even people he knows? (Brendan) Yeah, for the most part, even people he knows very well. He's just, he's just a little bit of a cynic sometimes. It's interesting. (Kaitlin) What if you put it in a bucket on the ground or something? Is it just the act of you handing it to him or...? (Brendan) On the ground, yeah, even on the ground. Unless it's a bucket in his stall or in his pasture that he's like, "This is my space. This is my comfort zone. I know where I'm at." Even if it were to be on the ground in the trailer or ground uh, you know, if we were to take him away from the trailer out in the grass and such, he's still quite skeptical of it. So, it's interesting. (Kaitlin) That's so funny. Yeah, I mean, I do see that in his profile because with his low independence, like you said he's social, but he's not like pushy in your face social. Or not... I guess "social" is not the right word, but he's... because of the low independence... low independence horses and people, they like to be part of a team. Like they want to be included, but he's also low on the extraversion side, so he's not necessarily like somebody that would go up to new people or new horses to say hi or like dig in your pocket for a treat or you know... that's how I would interpret his profile, and I'm hearing you confirm that a bit in what you're saying. (Brendan) Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that I think that he's definitely an introverted type of guy. He's not one that is going to really put himself out there, let's put it that way. In the herd dynamic, that's a little bit different. He's actually a bit more extraverted in the herd dynamic, but as far as his day-to-day life with people and with interacting with other things in general, he's quite introverted. (Kaitlin) And in the herd environment, are those mainly horses that he goes out with all the time? Like, what happens if you introduce him to a new horse? (Brendan) Yeah, even with new horses, he's definitely one that uh does mildly assert himself a little bit. A little bit more extroverted there. He's a little bit just kind of puts himself out there a little bit more. He's not necessarily a real pushy type of a horse, but he will usually be one of the first ones to go up and introduce and say, "Hey I'm here, and I'm probably above you so... move." He's usually pretty fair about it, but he definitely asserts himself a little more in those contexts. (Kaitlin) Interesting. That's so interesting because I wouldn't look at his profile and think that, but I wonder... I mean, he is also very high structure, and high structure horses have a very clear perception of right and wrong, and I wonder if some of that sort of like rule-oriented-ness or... I guess I'm looking for you to say yay or nay because I'm so curious where that might be coming in. (Brendan) Yeah, yeah, that could be definitely possible. The fact that for him often times things are a bit more black and white, so for him to be in his herd dynamic, he has a very defined place of where he is, and there's not much gray area there to him. That's his herd. This is what he does and if you come into his herd, it's very black and white with... (Kaitlin) These are the rules. (Brendan) Yeah, these are the rules, yeah. Yep, so I think that might be accurate, yeah. (Kaitlin) Cool that's uh, yeah, very interesting. I love having these conversations, because you know, I've been doing these personality profiles for people for a long time, and I've been doing them for horses for about a year and a half so I definitely still have a lot to learn, and I I just I learn so much from these conversations. Even though I'm the one like writing the profiles, I'm still learning from hearing all the stories myself. So, on the flip side of that coin as far as what your favorite thing is about Lyric, what is the most challenging thing about Lyric's personality? (Brendan) Yeah I would say it's similar on the flip side that the challenging thing is that he isn't as bold and extroverted, and this becomes a little bit of a challenge in show jumping because when we're... when we're in venues that have scarier looking jumps or scary looking fill or things that are very elaborate like the World Equestrian Center, both the stadium and in particular the Grand Arena, they're set up with very elaborate looking jumps. So that's a context where his introversion and his not as bold and confident in himself sometimes makes it a little bit more difficult, particularly in the context of the bridleless. It's a little bit different in the bridle, though still a challenge, but in the bridle, I can kind of push him into my hands a bit more and energize his body and hold him together to so-called "make it happen" a little bit more. But the bridleless, I don't have the ability to do that without significant side effects to the rideability and the overall balance of what we're trying to do. So though, as much as possible, I can help him with good accuracy, good energy, good balance, as much heads up as I can... that's one of the reasons why I do carry a crop is that oftentimes, eight strides away, I'll give him a little touch that just says, "hey, something's coming. Be ready. Heads up. Perk those ears. Be on the lookout, because something's coming that we have to work hard for." So, you know, that becomes a little bit of a challenge. Certainly, there's a lot of courses that I think we would have done better, and we would have uh... maybe not had a stop or maybe not had a challenging element if he was a little bit more of a bold horse. But at the same time, oftentimes when we run into those troubles, it's a combination of him being a little bit peaky at those elements, and me not necessarily being exactly perfect in the ride that I have to that fence. So certainly, if I'm not exactly perfect, there's a little bit more of an incentive for him to say, "yeah, let's try it again." (Kaitlin) Yeah, those high structure horses, they really demand perfection, and we see that in people, as well. Like the high structure people are very organized, more perfectionists. They want to do all the analysis before making a decision, and I find that the same is very similar with horses and that they are very risk averse. They don't want to be putting themselves in a situation where they're going to hit the jump or where they have to take a really long spot. Like they'd rather add a stride than take one out usually. So yeah, and then from a ride perspective, like if you don't get the right ride in, and they don't quite feel like they're really set up for success, they might stop or duck out or show their stress in other ways, potentially. (Brendan) Yeah, for sure, yeah. So, I would say that's one of the more challenging parts about him is just that idea that he's not that bold-jump-through-anything kind of a horse. (Kaitlin) That's uh interesting, and when I was prepping for this, I did find some pictures online of him doing hunters. Did you have the same challenges in the hunter ring? I'm curious how his personality maybe showed up in those two different rings since the hunters don't have such kind of wild, crazy looking jumps, although they certainly have their share of filler, just different types of filler. (Brendan) I would say it was similar. Actually, if anything, it might have been even more difficult at times in the hunters and in the derby's because that's a type of fill that he's not used to. He's mostly a show jumper now. We've evented a little bit. We've ran some cross country and such, and so he's seen that type of fill, but certainly the more natural type of a fill is something that he's not familiar with in the course of his career, so I would say it was more challenging in the hunters and in the derby and took more practice rounds and prep and ticketed schooling for him to be comfortable there. Once he became comfortable there, then it was okay, but uh certainly that was something that was quite new to him and for him, you know, that that was certainly something to take a look at, take a look at each time. So, we haven't done the hunters too much bridleless or derbies too much bridleless because we can't. (Kaitlin) They don't allow it, yeah. (Brendan) Certainly there are times that I've taken them out cross country bridleless, or uh... Loch Moy Farm here inside Maryland, a great eventing place. They run these really cool cross derbies particularly in the bad weather months, that... it's like almost like ingate eventing. You have basically a cross country course across three of their very very large rings, uh so he gets to go out and see different types of fill oftentimes in the cross derbies when we do those. So it becomes really fun for him to see something different and a good practice to challenge him mentally. (Kaitlin) You say fun. He probably thinks a little scary. (Brendan) Yeah yeah a little bit something in the middle, yeah. Once he gets in the rhythm, he really starts get going and he has fun with it, but certainly for him... It's mentally stimulating. Let's put it that way, yes. (Kaitlin) Yeah, for sure I think it's good to do different types of cross training, too. Do you feel his personality lends itself to one discipline over another? (Brendan) Um, I don't know that his personality that I've found does as much. I've definitely found that he has the most experience with show jumping, so he kind of latches on to that. The more I do... the more I cross train him often, then he becomes quite flexible in what he does. It starts to become part of his structure and he's doing it routinely. I find it that if I neglect that, then change or even going to a new type of venue that has different types of fills and such, becomes more difficult, so if I'm... if his structured routine involves new things all the time, then certainly that helps him. (Kaitlin) Yeah he gets more adaptable. (Brendan) Yeah yeah. (Kaitlin) So speaking of going to different places... like obviously as a show horse, you're going to different venues or you're showing in different rings... is there anything in particular you have to do to prepare him for shows from a personality standpoint? (Brendan) No not really. I think just the regular routine schooling that we do. He knows his job fairly well and most of what we work on is twofold. You know, there's elements that really fine-tune the flat work and then apply that flat work to you know, lower jump technical type work/ I would say if there's anything in preparation, it's really just making sure those buttons are in place to the best of our ability. Other than that, I don't really worry too much about going into a new venue other other than, you know, giving him as much time as I can possibly if it's a really scary environment like when you know... at the Grand Arena at WEC is a pretty hostile fish bowl type of an environment so if I have the opportunity to flat him in there or let him see some things. I go ahead and take that for him and get him as comfortable in there as I can. (Kaitlin) Yeah and let him see everything so it's not new when he's jumping it. (Brendan) Yeah, not too new, yeah, for him. He definitely appreciates having a little bit more exposure there than maybe a horse that just doesn't care and jumps anything in front of it. He's a little more sensitive than that. (Kaitlin) Yeah, yeah, and when you take him to a new place, how does he settle in? (Brendan) He settles in very easily actually. Yeah, he has no trouble at all. He trailers very well. He walks right off the trailer into a new place and just settles right in. There's usually not any stress or any sort of anxiety at all with that. He just steps right into it and says, "This is my new place. This is where I go." (Kaitlin) Yeah, yeah. I mean I guess he has a very risk averse profile so part of me would wonder if he is a little anxious in new places. Obviously with introducing new things... that makes him anxious or seeing new filler or new jumps. But he does have high stability which the high stability horses are just calmer horses in general, and then with his low extraversion, they tend to not be as expressive, so even if he was nervous, I can imagine that instead of getting like bigger and more animated, he might get like smaller and quieter. (Brendan) Yeah, often times it's a little more internalized. If there is something that's bothering him, it doesn't usually come out in a big, huge way. But overall, at the new venues, he's pretty unflappable when it comes to just being around the venue itself. It's not really until we start jumping things that he's like, "That's new!" And it becomes a bit different. (Kaitlin) Yeah, yeah. What sort of tips would you tell somebody if they were riding Lyric or training Lyric or had a horse similar to Lyric... what tips work really well with bringing out the best in him based on his personality? (Brendan) Yeah, I would say that a horse like Lyric and his personality, he very much enjoys the routine and the structure. I have very kind of a specific routine that we go through, particularly in the flat work, that gets him in the right frame of mind and kind of stair steps all the right ideas, and he kind of latches onto that routine so when I go into a new place, it's something that's very familiar to him so he can go into a new warm-up ring or he can go into a new expo or something like that, and he says, "Okay, the way that I'm riding is very familiar." (Kaitlin) Yeah, we're doing the same things. (Brendan) Right, right it's the same ideas. It's the same concepts. It's the same pyramid that I'm building into the way that he goes, so he latches on to that pretty well and holds on to that, so I think that's helpful as far as building that routine goes. At the same time, that said, continuously challenging his mind with new things, even if they're small, with new things, helps him not get so stuck in his routine that he's not open to change because I could definitely see him getting so much in his groove, that if I were to break the groove only every once in a while, there would be some push back. Here's an example. When I first took over the ride on Lyric, he hadn't done much outside the arena. A little bit here and there, but certainly like, taking him on bridle paths or trail rides or these types of things... there just hadn't been a lot of time for that yet. Not that we didn't want to. There just hadn't really been a lot of time for that, yet. And so I remember taking him I was at the farm that I lease in Ocala, and I remember taking him out the back gate to the bridle path, and he turned down that bridle path, and he stood straight up in the air and said, "Nope. No. I'm going back to the barn. I'm going back to the arena. That's what I know. I don't know what's out there." (Kaitlin) Were you by yourself? (Brendan) Yes, I was by myself, as well. Yeah, so that became a little bit of a mental challenge for him to overcome and say, "Okay, I'm going to accept the fact that I have to go into areas that I don't know." At this point, he accepts pretty much anywhere we go without hesitation, but certainly in the beginning, he had his routine. "I'm in my stall. I'm in my field. I go ride. I go back to my field. That's life." You know? That's kind of we do, so when we broke that for a moment, it kind of made his world crumble for a second. So the structure is appreciated, but not being afraid to break the structure often just so he's still comfortable with that idea. (Kaitlin) Yeah, like make a little bit of change part of the routine, about what he can expect. That every day, there'll be one minor thing he's gotta overcome. (Brendan) Yeah, some the little challenge. (Kaitlin) Yeah, so we've talked about managing at shows. We talked about riding tips. How about just managing Lyric around the barn, as far as who he goes out with, what you feed? Like, just any sort of non-riding, management type of things that you do to take his personality into account? (Brendan) Yeah, I would say that for the most part, managing Lyric - a personality like Lyric - is very simple. Life is very easy. He's very amiable. He's very much, like you know, "I know what I'm supposed to do, and I'll do it. I don't challenge the idea of what the structure of life is too much." With him, I would say that I'm learning more to try to do things to break him out of his shell and bring out his personality more and let him know that it's okay to interact. It's okay to be curious, to be inquisitive... politely. Sure, there's rules and there's boundaries, and certainly I want him to understand the rules and the boundaries and be polite, but at the same time, I don't want him to feel like there's such a divide between us that he can't interact, and he can't express himself and be inquisitive. So, I would say that's something newer for me with him and with a lot of my horses in general, because quite honestly... you know when they talk about a horse that has "personality," you know, often times that's a horse that's pushy, that's in your pocket, that knocks over things... (Kaitlin) Super social. (Brendan) Yeah, yeah, super social. I can't stand that. I just get like, you know... I'm more of the "seen but not heard" kind of a thing, you know? I want them to be... I want them to be quiet, and I want them to be relaxed, and I want them to be content... to be able to be by themselves like Lyric is, but at the same time, I don't want them to be that way because they feel shut down. I want them to be that way because they're comfortable, and they're content, and they're happy. But still have the freedom to express themselves. At times I feel like Lyric is a bit shut down, and so I'm learning to do more to try to help him out of that and try to help him to realize that life can be more interesting than that. And him and I can have a dynamic that's more interesting than that. So that's even personal growth for me to learn how to do that more so that's been an interesting development for me to play with him. (Kaitlin) Yeah, yeah, and with his personality profile... I feel like sometimes in horses - not his personality profile but those other personality profiles that are more gregarious and in-your-face - when they're stressed, they communicate it out loud, and with a personality profile like Lyric, they don't. They keep it in, and so it can be... I think sometimes we fall into the trap of being like, "Oh yeah, the horse is happy because it's quiet, and it's not making noise, and it's not pawing in the stall." But really like you said, they might actually just be shut down, and it gets a... it definitely tests our horsemanship a bit to be able to tell the difference between disassociating and being happy and content and quiet. (Brendan) Yeah, for sure. Yep, I 100% agree. And I think that has become interesting for me to look at more, even in my own self-awareness because Lyric and I are extreme similar in our personalities and in the way that we operate. I think it's one of the reasons why we get along so well is that we understand each other very well. But that same thing is something that I would struggle, as well, with in my own personal life, so being aware of it, being more self-aware of it in myself makes me look at him and say, "Hey, you know maybe this is something that I can help him with, as well and draw him out on." So yeah, absolutely I would agree. (Kaitlin) So I do have to ask because I feel like every time personality comes up, it's always nature versus nurture, and so I'm curious... I did try to do a bit of digging into his breeding and I couldn't find too much so I don't know if you knew his parents at all, his sire and dam, but if not, just maybe share your thoughts on the that nature versus nurture discussion related to personality. (Brendan) Yeah, I don't know too much about his heritage. He comes from a small breeding program in Argentina so that that would be interesting to know more, and certainly I'm hoping to actually get to Villanueva Ranch in Argentina, hopefully within the next year or so, and I would love to see his... you know, his mother and maybe his siblings and learn more about that, because it would be quite interesting. I... certainly from working in breeding programs and such, I certainly do believe there's a good amount that has to go on with just natural tendencies from breeding stock. And certainly, I believe that the mother has a lot to do with that, as well, not only in the breed tendencies, but just how she raises her foals. I think that, from my experience, that goes to a certain point and then training and nurturing starts to take over. And I think you can direct, particularly as a young horse, I think you can start to mold and direct how that breed trait and personality expresses itself in the work, to a certain extent. I think it becomes a lot more difficult once you start getting into that, you know, six, seven-year-old and up type of a thing. That personality is certainly a lot more established and not as moldable as it was in the past. But a lot of the young horse training, I think the responsibility is in that nurturing and is in that that developing of how they learn to learn, and then that starts to highlight the benefits of their personality traits rather than just saying... I think some people too often pass it off as saying, "Oh you know, this horse comes from this line so it's just going to be blockheaded and there's nothing you can do about it." Well, I don't know that I'm always on board with that. I think there's a lot to be said for taking out the strengths and then being able to develop the weaknesses. Certainly, those breed characteristics affect maybe the way that I know I approach a horse, but I know that I can also alter those things and develop this horse's own story going forward. So, I think there's a balance there, you know, the nature versus nurture. I think there's a really interesting balance there that can be developed more in the early stages, you know. (Kaitlin) It's interesting when you say about the strengths and weaknesses or strengths and challenges, because I've had a few of these conversations now with friends, and I did some pilot podcasts before that I didn't publish because I was just practicing, and the more I ask people about their favorite and the most challenging thing about the horse's personality, so many times are those two things associated with the same aspect of that horse's personality profile, and it's just like the flip side of the same coin, you know? Like you loved that Lyric is quiet, you know... that's that low extraversion. But then he's not always super curious and he shuts down and... you know that's also low extraversion. So, it's just really interesting to see, you know... there's no - I always say, there's no good or bad profile, right? As people, we are who we are, you know? Humans thankfully have the ability to self-reflect and learn from our past. Horses don't have the ability to self-reflect, but you know, they can still have new learned experiences, and we can build on top of those and how we work with them can either bring out the strengths and develop, or you know, mitigate some of the challenges... Or maybe they need to be in a different discipline where the challenge that you're facing actually becomes a strength. (Brendan) Yeah, yeah. (Kaitlin) There's so many different facets of these conversations. I just love hearing what people think and what their experiences are with that. (Brendan) Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. (Kaitlin) So to round us out, I have to ask you since you have been making a name for yourself doing the doing jumpers bridleless, is there, in your opinion, a certain personality of a horse that is best suited for a bridleless? Or do you really feel like any horse can be trained to do bridleless? (Brendan) I would say that my experience thus far would say that the ones that I think get it the quickest to a higher level, often times are the ones that are hotter more anxious more sensitive, which is usually the ones that people look at and are like, "Heck no! I'm not doing that! I'm not, I'm not taking that bridle off!" But uh, a lot of those anxieties, for those types of horses, can often be overstimulated by the bits. You can almost think of it as... you know, often times, for somebody that's has ADHD that gets very distracted by something... so here's an example of me personally... is that when I am - and this has been used against me, darn it! - but when I am playing a game, like a word game, say like Scattergories or something like that, and I'm concentrating hard on words - this coupled with the fact that I'm a musician - so if somebody's playing a song in the background, and the song has lyrics to it, it's almost impossible for me to play the game. I get stuck, so my brain just keeps bouncing back and forth to the song to the music to the lyrics to the game to the song to just... it's a pinball that goes back and forth. All these things that I can't concentrate and actually physically write what I'm trying to write inside the game. So often times, I feel like these horses are that way with the pressures that are inside their mouth, that as they're on the jump course, so much of their attention gets drawn to what they're trying to do inside their mouth and how they're trying to respond to the bit, that they are blocked from assimilating all of the other stuff that I need them to really well and relax into it, with the course itself or the environment itself, so when you eliminate that idea altogether, and you do something that, at least in the beginning, is a bit simpler to them and doesn't induce all of the other anxieties that maybe come from the bit pressure at times, then often times those horses very quickly start to relax. So that's been a really, really interesting study. Because if I were to look at three, full-time bridleless horses that I can think of right away, off the bat, in my program: Wings, who's probably one of the more famous ones. Hot, sensitive, fiery show jumper that, you know... in the bridle, was at times hard to manage. But bridleless, still takes a lot of finesse to ride him, but much more relaxed, much more attentive... happier horse in general. Two others that are full-time bridleless that have been in the program: off the track thoroughbreds. Both very tense, hot, off the track, sensitive type thoroughbreds, who we found went so much better bridleless that they became full-time bridleless. There was no reason to put a bit or a hackamore or halter on them again, as far as the riding goes. They just went better that way, so we've developed them that way. So, I definitely encourage people, don't write the horses off that you're like, "Yeah, I would never do that, you know? I would never even think about it!" Because oftentimes, those are the ones that can come around the most. Now, for the very, very basic work of, you know... maybe in two sessions, just be able to walk-trot-canter around and obviously, one that's very stable, a hunter-type horse, where it already just goes on the buckle and goes around... that's nice to have, because it's quiet and you just teach it to stay between the neck rain and all is good. But that horse is going to be more difficult to motivate into the higher-level work, the higher-level flat work - the dressage, the higher-level jumping. That horse is going to be more difficult to motivate to the technicalities that I need to make that successful compared to the one that's much more sensitive and maybe has a little bit more blood. Lyric's a little bit in the middle. (Kaitlin) I was going to say... because to me, sensitive and hot are associated with two different spectrums. Sensitivity to me is the high structure, but then he's also high stability, which are calmer, more stable, methodical horses. So, I was like, he doesn't really fit into either of those groups. (Brendan) Yeah, yeah. He's kind of stuck between the two, because he is, though, at times... sometimes he can be a little bit lazy, but as far as his attentiveness to the aids, the way that he learns... he is quite sensitive, and he is quite specific. So, he's stuck in the middle. As far as his overall demeanor, he's very stable. His gaits are very stable and consistent. He's very attentive, he's very relaxed, now, in the way that he goes. But you know, sometimes when they're that way, they can also be quite dull and not care about the work. He cares about the work, a lot! So, he's nice, because he's right there in the middle. The job isn't so overly difficult that it takes an everyday work to manage it. Like Wings, when he was competing on the circuit, that was a horse where it was meticulous, methodical schooling to keep him competition ready - exhaustingly so, at times. Whereas Lyric, I could set him aside for a week, and come back and ride him once and we're ready to show, you know? Like he's got the idea. He's got the stability. (Kaitlin) He knows what the rule is. He doesn't build up energy over time, probably. (Brendan) Not really. Yeah, not really. And he doesn't change the game on me often. Once it's taught and once it's established... yeah, we tune it up. We make it better, and I always want to improve it, but for the most part, he latches on to the idea and says, "Okay, I understand and know this." So that's helpful for me, especially when tackling levels of show jumping that are much more extremely difficult. I mean going into technical Grand Prix bridleless is something that is extremely daunting. I mean, I walk those courses and even coming out of the walk, I'm like, "Can I do this?" You know? There's a question mark, sometimes, in my head of these courses, like, "Am I gonna get this done today?" And some days we do, sometimes we don't. It's the nature of the beast of what we're trying to do, but it's helpful to have a horse at that level that I can rely on and say, "Okay, he's going to be the same horse for the most part today." Yeah, he's a little peaky so I have to work with that, but as far as the flatwork, the way he jumps, the consistency that we've built. I can take some trust and faith in him to show up for me for the most part. (Kaitlin) Yeah, you don't have to be like, "Which Lyric do I have today?" (Brendan) Right, that's exactly it, yeah. So that's very helpful in his personality. (Kaitlin) Yeah, yeah... well I think what you're doing is really cool and again, I just really appreciate you taking the time to come on and chat with me about his personality and a little bit about your work doing bridleless jumpers. It's very exciting, and I'm excited to see where you guys go with it! (Brendan) Yeah, thank you. It's been great to see the personality quiz. I think what you're doing is really great and could be a useful tool for vets, for farriers, for selling in the future. For people to be familiar with the idea and be able to see on an ad and say, "Okay, this horse has this type of personality profile." That could be something that could be extremely useful down the road for people buying and selling, and even in training horses. Hop on to one horse and say, "Hey, what's this horse's personality profile?" and have an idea of what you're getting into, so I think the idea is really good. (Kaitlin) Yeah, takes out a bit of the guessing work or at least that's, you know... that's the plan! (Brendan) Yeah, yeah, for sure. (Kaitlin) If you want to know your horse's profile, you can get a profile at the EqPI website which is www.equineperformanceidentities.com. If you like this podcast, we'd really appreciate if you showed us some love by giving us a rating on whatever listening platform you use, and if you know anyone who would like this particular episode, please share this episode with them, as well. Thanks for listening, and we hope you tune in next time! [Music]

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