Anthony Patch: From "Dangerous" to 5 Stars

Anthony Patch, a failed racing thoroughbred better known as "Al" (#goalgo) to his fans, was bought as a "dangerous" four-year-old by Lainey Ashker as her next Eventing prospect. Despite his quirks (although the quirky ones are the best ones, according to Lainey), Lainey brought him up through the levels, teaching him everything from jumping corners to standing in ice boots. The pair competed at big tracks such as the Kentucky 3-day and Burghley. Al had all the scope in the world, but he demanded accuracy and perfection, and Lainey credits him for making her the rider she is today and for teaching her a more refined style of riding that's necessary to compete at the top levels of Eventing.

Transcript

Welcome to Inside Equine Minds, a podcast where I, Kaitlin Hendry, meet with trainers, riders and grooms to dive deep inside the minds of the most successful horses in various disciplines. We'll take you behind the scenes from the horse's perspective to learn about how these horses are trained and managed in a way that strengthens their mental game and fuels their success. This podcast is brought to you by EqPI, or Equine Performance Identities, which is a personality profiling tool to help you understand your horse at an individual level. An EqPI profile provides information about your horse's individual needs and motivations so you can manage and work with them in a way that brings out their best. An EqPI profile can also inform breeding and sales by providing information about temperament to ensure the best match possible between either horse and rider, or stallion and mare. On today's episode I'm excited to be meeting with Lainey Ashker who is a five-star eventer, dressage queen, all of the things. She's multi-talented, but I'm really excited to talk to her about her gelding Anthony Patch, better known as Al, who was her five-star horse a number of years ago. And he is a 1999 Thoroughbred Lainey bought Al as a "dangerous" 4-year-old, and yet she was still able to get him to that five-star level. And so I'm really excited to talk with her about how she managed to do that given the challenges of his personality.

Before we dive into speaking with Lainey, let's do a quick overview of Al's EqPI profile. Lainey took the EqPI profile assessment for Al on the EqPI website which is equineperformanceidentities.com. It's a 5 to 10 minute survey you basically fill it out and tell me which characteristics you observe and how often, and then using those inputs, I create a profile. The assessment and my profiling measures four behavioral traits which are spectrums of behavior. The four spectrums are independence, which is the horse's preference to control or comply, extraversion, which is the horse's preference to interact or isolate, stability, which is the horse's preference for predictability or variety, and lastly the structure spectrum, which is the horse's preference for clarity or flexibility. By looking at where the horse falls on each spectrum, in addition to how the spectrums relate to each other... that's what gives us that kind of big picture personality profile for the horse. In looking at that independence spectrum, Al is very low independence which means that he likely relies on others for guidance. He probably doesn't have a lot of self-confidence. He probably gets his confidence more from others and how others are responding, as well as through expertise because he's also really high on the structure spectrum, which we'll get to. His reliance on others is probably also due to his slightly high extraversion spectrum. It's not really high. It's actually almost even "situational" but that probably means he's not going to be a super social horse, but because his extraversion is higher than his independent spectrum, he's still what we call "other oriented," so building a relationship is going to be important, being around other horses or having a person is going to be really important for him, etc. His stability spectrum is situational and for situational spectrums there's not really a strong preference one way or another, but we can get a better sense of how it shows up by looking at how it relates to other spectrums in the horse's profile. So for example, Al's stability spectrum is much lower than his structure spectrum, and when the structure spectrum is so much higher than the stability spectrum, we say that the horse is very careful with rules, so he's going to want to know exactly what is expected of him, what the right answer is. Once you teach him something, he's going to want to do it that way over and over again and you're probably not going to have to spend a lot of time correcting him for doing something wrong when he knows what the right answer is because he really wants to be correct. Okay, so his structure spectrum is by far his strongest spectrum meaning that it's going to influence his behavior the most. He is as high as you can get on the high structure side so extremely high structure, so he's going to want things to be very black and white. He's going to be very routine and rule oriented. He's probably not going to like doing things that he doesn't know how to do because he wants to mitigate risk, especially because his structure spectrum is much higher than his independence spectrum which means he's very risk adverse. And so doing anything new or if he doesn't know what the right answer is, that's likely going to make him very nervous and we'll probably see some spookiness from him, as well. If you want to see Al's profile in more detail, it is available on the Patreon for this podcast. Paying members get to see all of the guest horse profiles for free, or if you don't want to be a paying member, you can purchase profiles one off on the Patreon site, as well. Patreon members also get discount codes for EqPI services and early access to the podcast content.

Now that we all have a basic understanding of Al's EqPI personality profile, let's talk to Lainey. Hey Lainey! Thanks for joining me today. I'm really excited to talk with you about Al, and I'd love to start off by hearing about your favorite thing about Al's personality. (Lainey) Al's personality... he's a horse that is a little a bit distrusting, so um over the course... Al was a 1999 foal. Um I got him as a four-year-old and he is now that makes him like... 1999 I can't do the math... 25? I've had him for a long time! Um and over the course of the years, he has made me feel very special, because he definitely knows me over anybody else, and I think it's because that distrusting... like very sensitive uh mindset, he... you know whereas Patrick will take treats from anybody and you know he's a total ham. Al is very reserved, and he has to really know you to allow you to you know pet him and give him treats, and so um I can be gone for a week if I'm away at a horse show and come back, and he always knows and is thrilled to see me. And so that's what my favorite thing is I feel he makes me feel very special. (Kaitlin) yeah, I was prepping for this and reading like all the old articles and all of his retirement stuff came up and you were always quoted about how he makes you feel like a star, and you know, it's a really special relationship. (Lainey) I probably had Al a few years too early in my career to really have given him the chance of Olympic medals that he should, that he should have because the horse is still to this day... I probably won't have a horse as nice as he was, and I didn't know any better, and a horse that could really you know... I got this cool thoroughbred, and I knew it was a good mover. You'd be silly to not know that, and I knew it was a good jumper, but I just didn't have the skill set, you know, in my younger years to merit a horse that was as careful as he is, because it's hard to find a thoroughbred that has all three: that's a good mover, that can hold up, and then is careful in the show jumping. (Kaitlin) So from a personality standpoint what's the most challenging thing about Al? (Lainey) Well that distrusting right? So he has this standoffish personality that you know... he likes to have a strict regiment of being fed at the same time, even getting ridden at the same time. He likes his schedule so introducing new things... I spent three years at the now three star, but it was the two star level, because I had a hard time with corners with him, and it was just, you know, him understanding, and not only that, but me understanding his ride to that. Because he was a very specific type of horse that liked to be ridden a certain way. He didn't like the bold, you know, ballsy, leave-stride-out rides. He would rather add the stride because he is so careful. Yeah, so that that made for training, whereas um some horses caught on to things like water and ditches really quickly... I actually think Lottie, my Lovedance mare is very similar to Al. She also has her circle of trust of her people that she allows to be around her, and she's the same way. With her, it's more ditches and taking like, taking the time and really explaining it to her. And once they learn, you know, that that's what they're supposed to do, then they're great, but they just... everything new to them is kind of like a shock, and they're a little unsure, and that's just been uh, you know... That would been the most difficult. Al always found the dressage quite easy. He wasn't a nervous type of horse because he really relished off of having other horses around him. I always joke like... he would win the more horses... the more rings in one area, the better because Al loved being surrounded by horses. And teaching him flying changes - he was the easiest one, because it was kind of... I think because it was easy for him. It was more introducing things that wouldn't be in his normal day-to-day which, you know... corners or teaching him to jump roundly. That kind of wasn't in his comfort zone, which I had to just take a really long time to do. (Kaitlin) Yeah, I mean, he is really high on the structure spectrum. Like you literally picked every single high structure characteristic and said "always". They show up always for every single one, so yeah, like you literally cannot be stronger on the high structure side. And so, I keep hearing you say careful... like he'd rather do the ad, he's more risk averse... that's all associated with that high structure. And he's low independence, as well, so I'm hearing that when you say he liked being around other horses, doesn't want to be alone, because he is slightly high on extraversion, too, so he's a more kind of other-oriented horse. He likes his schedule, you know... That's all showing up in his profile. (Lainey) I think I would always laugh, because um you know, when he would go to these five stars, he would just be alone and he would... I always said Al performed the best he was a little bit depressed, because he had to depend on me, and he didn't have his normal friends around him. And he would also be the horse that like, within an hour-long trail ride, sorry trailer ride, that horse becomes his new best friend. He's just he's really really, I always thought of it as a little insecure, around other horses, and I'm like, "Al you are like the one of the best horses in the world, and you have to have a friend with you all the time!" But I always liked when he would go alone because he'd have to depend on me a little bit more as his horse and um you know... like probably the worst five star for him would have been Burghley, but I really wanted to go, and I knew I had a horse that could do it, but he wouldn't be the... the... it's not that he wasn't brave. It was just that he... because he was very brave, but he just didn't want to be put in a place where he would be hitting a jump. Like, he learned how to brush through brush, but that took a little bit. Where Burghley is such a course - it's such a meaty, beefy course, that you've got to have a horse that susses out the flags to just get through them, and bless him! I mean I got through my first Burghley with him, but if I were to like peg a horse that was... like he would be better suited for a Pau or a Luhmuhlen or a Kentucky, whereas Patrick was for sure like a Badminton and Burghley - like "Get out of my way. I'm gonna do this!" type of thing. (Kaitlin) Probably higher independence, I would imagine, like more confident. (Lainey) Yes, way more confident, and um even to the like... treats. Like he'll just hear treats, and he'll... I've taught him how to smile. Al would never smile. That's way beneath him, but Patty doesn't care. Anything for a treat, like he's smiling and there's no one around him because he wants the treat! So it's just, it's so funny how different their personalities are. And I think, you know, that being said with the test, the personality test, it really does pinpoint the horses so well, and makes it like... especially if someone that's like me, and you're second guessing whether your training methods... maybe this horse isn't going quick enough or maybe this horse, maybe you're pushing the horse too quickly... Really understanding their personalities and speaking their language really helps from a trainer standpoint. (Kaitlin) For sure, so you've mentioned you know, there's the trainer aspect, and then there's sort of, the barn management aspect, and you've mentioned with Al a couple times now - he really needs his schedule. He needs to be fed, even though he is retired, you know, fed at the same time every day, and that sort of thing. How else does his personality influence the way that you manage him around the barn, either related to feeding, turnout, who he goes out with, etc. (Lainey) Well, so, all my horses are in individual turnout, and I'm sure Al would love to have a million horses in his field with him, but um you know, they all have large pastures, but you know, in regards to like turnout, like he has the field that's surrounded mostly by horses. He's also on a schedule as far as like, if the horses start getting turned out before him, he'll throw a fit. So like, he's the first wave of horses to go out, but then he walks with Patty, because he can't be out there alone, because that would make him upset. He knows it's time to go out so sometimes he won't even eat his grain, because he's really excited to go out, and then we have to take the grain out to him, because it's not about him being ulcery or... he just is really, that's the schedule and if you're running late, then he's upset that he's not gotten out. And he'll like, he'll throw his halter and so he gets walked hand in hand with Patrick so that he's the first to go out but then he's not alone outside, because Patty's got a neighboring field with him. And then he's as happy as a clam! So it took him a long time to... he still will get his fly sheet on, because he's also a horse which is... most horses I didn't think... they don't really like being blanketed. Al really likes being blanketed. He gets cold easily, and he really likes to have his fly sheet on, and when I first retired him, it was like a 67 degree day. There was not a fly out, and so I turned him without a fly sheet on. He loves his fly sheet so much, I bought him one of those fly sheets that have pants. Like he loves, like he hates flies and so when I turned him out, it took him... it took him like the whole day, like he was galloping around, because something changed. He didn't have his fly sheet on. You know, there were flies around him, I threw a wrench in his schedule so it's just you know, and now he's lightened up a little bit, you know. Like because if it's a nice day out, I want them to have the sun on their backs. He doesn't need to have the fly sheet on, but you know, back when he was going five stars, anything to you know, limit the risk of him you know, running around is what I would do, but now, he's you know, now he gets the fly sheet if he needs the fly sheet, and if he doesn't, he's actually okay with it but it's taken some time. (Kaitlin) Does he ask for it? Like if you leave it on the fence, will he walk up and stand by it? And be like, "Come on!" (Lainey) Oh yeah, well, he'll... if he wants something, he'll take the... this is the only time that he's really extraverted is he will like... he'll... if he wants to go out, he'll take the halter and he throws it off the stall. He'll take his fly mask, and he'll throw it off the stall. He's very good about keeping himself dressed. If he loses his fly mask, the chances are his neighbor took it off of him. Or if you leave the fly sheet on the you know, waiting for him to be dressed, he'll throw it off. That's the only time that he would be brave enough to do something like that, because that's part of the schedule and you're late. (Kaitlin) Like, "here you go!" (Lainey) yeah (Kaitlin) I do wonder also... I do think high structure horses are really sensitive, so I do wonder if being sensitive to flies and things like that is associated with the high structure, as well, because I do think they're also the more sensitive rides, especially if their structure spectrum is higher than their stability spectrum. If their stability spectrum is higher, they tend to just be calmer in general. Kind of more chill horses, and he's situational stability, but because his structure is so high, there's a pretty big gap between those two spectrums which I think why he's so adamant about having a schedule. Like because when the structure spectrum is higher than the stability spectrum, we say that that horse is careful with rules. Yeah so like, wanting to know exactly what the right answer is, things are black and white, the schedule is "this." Don't deviate from the schedule. (Lainey) And funny enough, like traveling to horse shows, he was always fine, but you know- think about it. The horse shows, they're surrounded by other horses and the stalls. Like he never worried about um being at the show. He wasn't a horse, like I mean... I didn't know to give gastroguard, you know, every time we went. Like he never had any of that stuff. Like, I started getting gastroguard when he was going the Five Star level, but he was very low maintenance. You know very sound horse. Um and I do think that that's where his dependence on other horses really helped him get through that, because he would very rarely be nervous. I mean I can count maybe on one hand the amount of dressage tests that he was nervous in. He just was really easy. He was a very spooky horse, very spooky, but you know if you could do ring familiarization... um the kiss of death for him - like if Al could spend every day in the arena, he would. He hated, absolutely hated trail rides. I think a lot there's a lot of unknown there, so I... I'm not a huge draw rein person but for my life, um because it was at risk, I had to keep him on draw reins anytime, and still to this day, anytime that we go out of the arena, because if he... he's especially sensitive, he's scared of cattle so if he um hears a cow or smells a cow, like he doesn't have any like self, um, he just kind of boils over and will completely flip out. And to the point where he's probably one of the only horses I've ever been afraid on before, really um because, he kind of loses all like self-awareness when he's really that scared. But yet, he'll run around five stars, but I feel like you know, there's gallop lanes. He was always worse to ride the lower levels because there aren't gallop lanes. There were people walking the course. Like you know, at Kentucky, at Burghley, you know, um at all these top - Fair Hill - he never, never cared. He was very brave, because I think he had that structure of the gallop lane, and not you know... and he didn't mind about a large crowd, but if there's someone randomly like, standing next to a fence that shouldn't be there, he noticed that and that got his attention, so I always preferred to ride him at the highest level versus like a prelim or below, because he was always spooking at everything but the jump. (Kaitlin) Were there other things that you did when you rode him or trained him that took his personality into consideration? (Lainey) Oh yeah, 100%. I always knew, like... so some horses, you have to be... you have to keep them very, very calm. Like for instance, when I would go into the final day at show jumping with him, you know, like... uh Frodo. If Frodo would get tense, then he would like lose his back and start hitting rails. I've had a few... a lot of horses... most horses are that way when they're tense. When Al was tense, he would jump higher, and he had the most unorthodox way of jumping, because he would jump like a deer with his head up in the air, but he would also leave like, five feet. (Kaitlin) Always clear it. (Lainey) Yeah, and um, so I could kind of get it. I always knew that when I would go into the show jumping and if he, like he would never rear, but like do a little like prancy thing, then I was like, "Okay we're gonna have a clear round." Because he's like hemped up, and he rarely did hit rails. I mean that would make sense why he was so careful, you know, and like I said, in training him... Oh, I got a good another good one! So teaching him to use ice boots... You know, the first time I put him in ice boots, I almost lost my life, because he jumped up so high that I could see his feet like at my eyes, so it took me, I would say a good month, and I started by just putting his feet in in like pans, um feed pans, um and just the pans. And then I slowly added the water, and then I slowly added ice, and I would do one foot at a time. And like, after about a month, then he learned to stand in the ice boots. And then we would revert, because if he was in the ice boots, and he'd fling one over, then he'd freak out. And then you know, of course as he was going up the levels, then he got really good, but the ice boots took a really long time. A lot of horses, they get it the first try. They're cool with it. Still to this day, Al cannot do the equivibe I have. I'm sponsored by equivibe and my horses go on the equivibe every single day. It's a theraplate, and after they get worked out, they go on there, um and they do their thing. Al used to stand on that by himself. I would put him on it, and just leave him, and he would ground tie there, but now, because no other horses do that, I've had someone build me like a little stall around it, so you just load the horses on as if you were loading into a trailer, and then close it, and then leave them and there's a haynet. He will not get on it. Like he will not. Now he's been on it for 10 years, but now, because that has changed, and he feels a little claustrophobic, he will not go on it. So we just don't do the equivibe anymore, because Al said no. And there's some things that are non-negotiables for him, and cows and the equivibe that is like surrounded by, you know, boards. He just... it's no. It's a non-negotiable. Loading in any trailer? Totally fine, but the equivibe is just a no, no, not going to happen. (Kaitlin) Yeah, is there any anything special you have to do to prepare him for shows? (Lainey) You know, not really. He was all, he's always been... I always thought... so some horses are better at training. Al did a lot of his best work in the show. He was a showman that way, and not because I think he's a horse that likes the attention. I think he actually gets worried about the attention, but it's because he's a, he was very obedient horse, a very trained horse, and I think a lot of his obedience was my downfall, you know, in a lot of cross country runs that we didn't do well, because I just didn't give him the right... I wasn't as accurate as I am today or as I was at the end of his career so he would be listening so well. Like he never pulled. He was never a horse that I'd be like, "oh, he's so strong." Like never, never pulled so you know, he went in a loose ring snaffle with no flash for dressage, a loose ring snaffle for show jumping and for cross country, he went in a full cheek gag just to help keep him straight for corners, but I wrapped it with like a ton of latex just to soften it, and it just helped me keep him rounder and helped me keep him straighter, but yeah, he just was all... it always was a pleasant experience with him at the shows. Unless he had multiple horses with him and then he would be stressed, because if the horses left, he was worried about where the horses went, you know. (Kaitlin) His buddies. (Lainey) Yeah, yeah, but he, but he never like, I never had to do like all these pre-rides to... no like, he just, he wasn't that type of horse. You gave him his job, and he was very happy to do it. The only time he had a not that great of a test... at Kentucky, he was second after dressage the year before at Kentucky and then we had a silly stop on cross country. I rode the coffin not well, and then he had a clear a double clear show jumping, and so the next year, I came back, and I was slated to do really well. We'd had a great lead up to it, and so I was probably like third to last to go, whereas the year before I was on the first day at the end, so the crowds weren't... the crowds weren't that... I mean,, they were big, but they weren't as... as buzzy as they were, and then they moved the arena. That second year, they moved the arena closer to the crowd so when you were going in at A, there was... you'd be about 10 feet from where the grand stand was, and I could tell he was having this like, blow up within the warm-up, because going on Friday, going at the end of the day... because he's not a... he's not a horse that really thrives on a ton of attention or the clapping... that noise makes him nervous, and people were really excited. He had such a following, so when I went around the arena, people were cheering, and that made him even more nervous and I tried to go like "this" (puts finger to lips) you know, (Kaitlin) *whispers* shut up, (Lainey) Yeah, you don't want be rude. You don't want to be rude, because you love the support, but the horse isn't appreciating the support, and he was already on edge, because there were so many more people just even in the warm-up area. You know, looking back now, I probably should have warmed up, um you know, near the barns and then maybe just done one round before I went in, because he definitely kind of grew, went inside himself, and then we had a, you know, a crappy test that put us in the middle of the pack, and all of his best tests would have been on a Thursday. Um, at Burghley, he went on Friday and had a nice test, but it was in the morning, so and again the warmup, there weren't a ton of people watching the warmup. They were more around the arena, so you know, kind of just getting to know what is. And for the cross country and the show jumping, it didn't matter because he had the jump in front of him to pay attention, but yeah, that was that was a... that was a tough one, uh, for that next Kentucky because then he ended up jumping clear, and we would have been in like you know, a super high place if he had would have done just what his average test, but you know, what I could have, should have... it's always a learning experience. (Kaitlin) Yeah, I mean that's horses, I guess. (Lainey) Horses, yeah. (Kaitlin) I wonder... I mean his low independence... I wonder if the all the crowds being there... all that energy... if he was kind of interpreting that as conflict or tension, like there's just so much energy and you know? (Lainey) He will read the tension, yeah. He will read the tension, like I mean, um, he's very weird about new people walking up to him. Like he's very, he's a very heady horse that way. (Kaitlin) I feel like when you think about an eventer, you think about this horse that's really brave and maybe a little strong, and it doesn't sound like Al was those things most of the time, but he was your most successful horse so far, so how were you able to work with him in a way that got him to those levels? (Lainey) Like I said, he was a horse that like I... is very funny like... never did care about a water tray on the ground... like so spooky, but given his job, he was, he was, he was obedient, and um, so like I said before with the cross country, like I wouldn't... he wasn't a Patrick where like you could put a monkey on the back and the horse would go and do it. Like you know, I've fallen off before Patty, and he literally went and jumped two more cross country jumps without me. (Kaitlin) like, "Bye Mom!" (Lainey) Yeah, um but Al would be one that if I fell off of him, he'd either stand next to me, or he would run back to the horses. And I didn't realize the quality of horse that I had when I had him um, because I'd always been on really brave, bold horses, and Al was my first, my first top level horse that it... like I said, it's not that he wasn't brave, because he would jump anything. I mean he jumped the biggest ditches and walls in the world, you know, going to Burghley and to Kentucky. But he... if you didn't ride, if you rode him in a way that he would hit it. He was, he was very self-preserving, I guess that's probably a better way of saying... he was very self-preserving, so if he, you know... I would never get hurt on that horse. I never broke a single bone on that horse, so um if it were going to be... even to the point where there was one Kentucky where um, he misread a corner and went to land early and it was so wide that he opened his front legs, but he dropped his shoulder, and I stood no chance of staying on, and he jumped me afterwards so that he wouldn't hit me. Like very self-preserving horse in that aspect, so you know, that was a... like I said... I didn't have the accuracy. Like if I had the horse now, after making all the mistakes that I made on him, I think he would have been a horse that would, you know, be a world beater, but you know, like I said, I took the chance on him from a young age and brought him up the levels, and we had a lot of success... (Kaitlin) yeah, you did... (Lainey) yeah, um you know, we had a lot of success throughout the levels. There would be, you know, a couple five stars where one stop here, one stop there, and it was just because I didn't... I didn't have the accuracy at that level consistently enough, and you know, listen... I'm grateful for him, because you know, as we age in this sport, and we're one of the only Olympic sports that you can be a little bit.... have a little more years on you and you actually can improve and compete against the young guns, so as I've aged and my own bravery has turned into more of an accuracy, um it's made a better pilot for my horses, like the careful ones like Lottie, you know. It's always fun to ride a horse like that will jump anything from anywhere, but I'm grateful for Al. And you know, looking back I wasn't grateful then when I would have a stop and lost second place in Kentucky, but you know I wasn't good enough, and you know... and when I fixed it, the horse jumped it. He rewarded me every time I was good enough. (Kaitlin) Yeah, he just like demanded the... (Lainey) Yeah, he wanted accuracy. He wanted accuracy, and I think at that level, you have to have a horse that has... that's why I think Burghley and Badminton probably weren't the best courses for him, um, whereas Kentucky, you know, where maybe the distances aren't related and the horses have to learn how to find a fifth leg, you know... that wouldn't be his type of course. He was more of um an accurate, "I need a plan", we start with a plan... technical and that's the beauty. That's why we have all these five stars in the world now, and now we can... it's not like this is the only one you can go to and so he taught me a lot about that, and at the time, like I said, I had never been to Burghley. I hadn't even gone to watch... I was... this was my first time riding it, and I wanted to go with a horse that I knew for sure had the scope to do it, because they have to have scope, and so you know, where we had our stop was, again, an accuracy question, and um it was the smallest jump on the darn course! But I learned so much throughout just that one course and that one experience in becoming a better... becoming that caliber of a rider, um on a horse that has always been that quality and that caliber. Like I said, I just didn't quite have the... the honed talent at that point, for what he demanded. There's lots of horses that would do it no matter what, but Al was probably the best horse for me to have after my accident with Frodo, because he really demanded me to be more accurate, and before that, I'd gone you know... I'd ridden my horses gutsy and ballsy and forward you know, would get the distance most of the time, but he wanted it all of the time, and it just made me a better rider. And that's kind of what I've turned into today, and I still have you know, a miss... we all do but the level of accuracy that I've learned as a result of having success on Al has been a game changer for me. (Kaitlin) Do you know much about his breeding? I was looking a little bit earlier. I saw he was bred in New Jersey. His sire's Castleguard. (Lainey) And Amy Alexis was his mom. (Kaitlin) Yeah, Amy Alexis, yeah. How do you feel like his breeding has affected his personality at all? You know, kind of going back to the question of nature versus nurture... what's your experience with that? What's your perspective? (Lainey) So I... when Al was young... I got Al as a four-year-old. I got Al because he was deemed dangerous and the people that sold him to me got him from a gal who had him for three days. She got him off the meat truck um because he was going to slaughter at a West Virginia racetrack. Paul and Lauren Jaden called me, and said,, "We've got this horse. It's got talent, but it's really... it's crazy. We will not ride it." So I went to see him. He lost two shoes on the lunge line... TWO shoes while they were showing him to me. They would not even get on him. (Kaitlin) Because he was spooky? Like, what... why did they deem him dangerous? (Lainey) Well, so Paul got hurt on him. Um I think he broke his leg, because the horse flipped over backwards. And so, and I thought, 'Was he girthy?' He wasn't girthy, and my mom went with me. I mean I saw the horse move... I saw one movement I said, "That's my horse." And then I jumped him over these little barrels, and he jumped like crazy over. I was like, this is an incredible horse. I come to find outm when we picked him up, we got him home, and I was like, "I'm gonna ride him three times a day. I'm gonna train this horse." He was a totally different horse! So when I went to UVA, it was my first or second year at UVA, I took him on a trail ride, and I go in a field of cows, and he immediately flipped over backwards. Like there was no... he saw it. He stopped, and his first thing... all of his self-preservation that I've known him to have went out the door when he saw cattle. Literally flip. Done. He was so scared stiff that he didn't go anywhere, because we were way far away from the farm. So I got back on him, and I was, I was shaken, but I was pissed, so I canter him, and he takes off blindly. I mean... we jumped a barbwire fence. We went through cattle because he was so scared, so when I went back and thought about where he was surrounded at Lauren and Paul's, they were surrounded by cattle. Like their whole farm was surrounded by cattle, and so going back... this is a long answer to your breeding question. I called his trainer who I still in touch with, Tom... or his breeder, Tom Swails, and I said to Tom, "Has he ever been around cattle, like what?" He said no. And so, Al went to... I was in England doing the Olympic test event with him, and he jumped out of his pasture when he saw cattle and sheep like, I'm not kidding you, MILES away, but he heard them, and he just picked up a canter and jumped clear, wouldn't touch it. Yeah, and I'm like, okay, we're in a foreign country, and my horse is galloping down the road. But a lot of his misunderstanding... and Lauren and Paul still think I'm like. this messiah of trainers, and I'm like I'm really not. I'm really not that good of a rider. (Kaitlin) We just don't encounter cattle. (Lainey) And you know what? Because everyone was like, "Oh you should put a cow next to him." I was like, "You know what? No." Because he will... I have seen him in that point where he... everything is lost. He's blind. He can't handle it, and you know what? What's the point? There's no cattle in our shows so we just... He will always have his "cowdar" on, even to this day. We've got... you can't see the cows, but there are cows probably about, like, five miles away, and at feeding time, if you can hear them moo, he will stand and he will not eat. And he will look in the distance, and I just... you know what? He just is never gonna go near cows. But I will say with his breeding, it's sad because the stallion died shortly after he was born, because... and I've had a few people, one or two, reach out to me that had Castleguard get and they're all plain bays. Really kind of light sweeping movement, you know. It... I totally I think... he ran like, you know, eight times, and the highest he placed was third and I was like, Al would never break away from the crowd. He could run all day long, and he was fast as anything, but he'd be in the middle. He isn't going anywhere from the horses. He wants to be with the horses. He doesn't want to be in the front, so I was like, yeah, he was never gonna be a racehorse. (Kaitlin) Yeah, I saw he only won $815 dollars. (Lainey) But the one of the soundest horses I've ever, ever had, and um and by far out of any horse I've ever had (Kaitlin) the toughest how? (Lainey) He's the toughest horse which again doesn't suit for how... uh like he... his first two star, then one star, um we were in Florida, and he had a... he always would grab his heels. He um had such a, such, so short coupled, so short backed but long-legged, you know. I had to wear bell boots on him, and we were cross country schooling or something and he ripped open his heel. Like it was... it was flapping off and I was like... this is like right before we got a jog the next day, and the vet said, "I don't know if you're going to make it through". And so, I just cleaned it, and they did a little glue on it, and that horse never took a lame step. I mean he's just a tough, tough guy, and it's funny because he likes his blanket, he likes to be groomed, you know. He will walk over a bed of nails burning and would still be sound. He just always showed up for the job, and the strongest backed horse I've ever had. He never in his life had chiro done on him. He would get massages, but never in a day I can remember he was ever soar in his back. Yeah, just a really, really interesting, very interesting personality with Al that has been, you know... It took a lot for someone that was moving up in the ropes of eventing learning how to train something of that high structure and high quality. In my line of work in all the horses that I've ridden, I've not had many that are like him in how he's really tough. He's really resilient. He's very careful. He's brave but you have to be accurate. Super sensitive... like all of these same traits are really hard to find in one other horse and so where people may have an issue with training their horse or may think that horse hasn't got the right job for the Five Star level, it might just need someone else's help to get there, you know? I always found that my top, top horses, my top horses, uh they're quirky. They're quirky, and that's exactly what he is. He's super quirky and those quirks, when channeled in the right direction, end up being you know, worldclass horses. So my biggest piece of advice to people is to just stay patient with yourself. And stay patient with the horse and if you need you know, there are better horses that are in programs. Look at him, he made my career and I'm glad that I did take that extra time you know making those mistakes with him and that he was patient enough for me to make those mistakes and that I didn't sell him for loads of money. Because no one else really understood the process of, you know, being flipped over backwards because he saw cows, or teaching him to go in ice boots for a freaking month you know? And it's made for our relationship as one that people could identify with you know. They get this horse off the track, and you know, you bring them up from the track to the five star level... that's I think what gave us so much popularity. It wasn't so much that we had success and that's all great, right? But I think it was identifiable for, you know... we all have this... this little horse crazy barn girl in our hearts, even to this day, you know? I just go into the barn today, just to meet my new horse and to pet him and give him treats and you know, this is why we do it and doing stuff like that, I guarantee will make the horse want to do for you versus showing up and just riding them. The time put in and the relationship created, and I don't care what sport you're in. It matters in Eventing because Eventing is very much a sport of trust, you know, with the cross and with the unknown, but it really matters in any sport that you do is the horse has to like and has to trust the person that's on his back. And I credit all of my success to having the relationship that I've had with my horses. They want to go for me because they know the person that's on their back. When I go to the shows, I'm the one wrapping their legs, I'm one hand walking them, and that quality time, if you have to pick one or the other, will trump training any day if the horse trusts you. So that's my biggest piece of advice, especially for a horse with the personality traits that Al has. Usually those are the ones that give you the most anyhow so yeah, that's my two cents about it. (Kaitlin) It's very rewarding because with those horses, you have to really earn it. They don't just give it away. (Lainey) yeah, yeah. 

(Kaitlin) If you want to know your horse's profile, you can get a profile at the EqPI website which is www.equineperformanceidentities.com. If you like this podcast, we'd really appreciate if you showed us some love by giving us a rating on whatever listening platform you use, and if you know anyone who would like this particular episode, please share this episode with them, as well. Thanks for listening, and we hope you tune in next time!

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